Ali Sanduk: 0:00

The client is not really aware of all of this. The client could be a doctor, they could be a carpenter, they could be anything. Your role as a consultant is to basically open their eyes and to influence them and to guide them through this minefield. And yeah, so influencing is a huge part of our role that we happen to do without even knowing, on a day-to-day basis. At the end of the day we entered, you know, that field to make a positive change. We try and do it through, you know, passively influencing the client or the public into what is out there. What is the future like? How to make a change? Planning rules have changed quite a lot. Building regulations have changed, technologies have changed. Client awareness towards sustainability has increased. So it's not a stale field. Architecture is constantly changing and this is really what entices me, what keeps me going, what keeps me looking forward towards every day and every project and every challenge there is.

Darren Evans: 1:14

Hello and welcome to the Thriving Construction Podcast Today. We have as a guest Ali Sanduk, and Ali, great to have you here with us today. Thank you very much. Great to be here. So for the people that are watching and listening to this podcast, they probably won't be as familiar with you as maybe I am, so just wondered if you might be able to just introduce yourself and just a bit about what you do at the moment in the organization that you're working for.

Ali Sanduk: 1:38

Sure, so my name is Ali Sanduk. I was born in Iraq, in Baghdad. I came here in 2007, started doing my GCSE at the age of 14, then went to do A-level and then went to Plymouth University to start sort of my career, really. So I started by taking a BA Honours at Architectural Technology and the Environment and after graduation I moved on to the real world.

Darren Evans: 2:06

Really so the real world. What do you mean by the real world?

Ali Sanduk: 2:10

Well there's. There's a huge contrast between academia and employment, really what you learn and what you get to practice, and I sort of got to discover that by sort of applying what I learned in construction and design. So I started working for a local company doing high-end residential houses, stayed with them for about a few years, then moved to a design and build company, and all of that was based in Surrey, which is where I grew up. From there I then moved to Chapman Taylor. Chapman Taylor is an architectural and master planning firm. They specialize in all sorts of sectors residential, retail, transportation, master planning. We have offices across 15 countries. So I started with their residential department and I then moved to the transportation sector and that's where I'm working now. That's where I'm based in.

Darren Evans: 3:10

So that's, yeah, that's me Good good stuff, and so talk to me about Iraq. What was it like growing up in Iraq? Baghdad, yeah. Baghdad, yes, did you?

Ali Sanduk: 3:18

always live in Baghdad. Yes, that's correct. Yeah, I've always lived in Baghdad, so living in Baghdad was actually it was a very interesting time. I was born in 1993.

Darren Evans: 3:29

Okay.

Ali Sanduk: 3:29

During that time there was the economic sort of sanctions imposed on Iraq. So it was during the era of Saddam Hussein by the time I was 10, the Iraq War began. Within the age of 14, we left Iraq. So it's a quite sort of turbulent time that.

Ali Sanduk: 3:46

I was sort of raised in and I guess living in such a difficult times it sort of it sharpens your personality, it pushes you to grow up fast, so yeah, so that's basically. Yeah, that's basically how my childhood was sort of nurtured, and the childhood sort of paused and the adulthood began really when I sort of came to, or when the teenage years began is when I came to the UK.

Darren Evans: 4:15

So let's just talk about, if you're happy home life back in Baghdad. Mum, dad, what was it that they did, and how did their example or their way influence your life, to which you're benefiting from?

Ali Sanduk: 4:29

now. I was raised in a very sort of traditional Iraqi household, so we lived with our grandparents In the Middle East. Normally the eldest son tends to take care of their parents, so in my household I got the privilege to be raised by my grandma and my grandfather. My grandfather was an archaeologist.

Darren Evans: 4:56

Okay.

Ali Sanduk: 4:57

Well, actually he was an archaeologist surveyor working for the Iraqi Ministry of Archaeology, so they would go to sites that have recently been discovered and he would be surveying them, doing the plans, elevations and so on. That was his job. And my father is a university professor and he's also a painter. He does it as a hobby. What does he lecture in? So he specializes in environmental energy okay, uh sorry, renewable energy in surrey university and my mother is a doctor specialized in anesthesia okay. So that sort of childhood or being raised in that environment sort of sharpened my ambition in life to try and enter the field of either engineering or architecture. And then as I grew older, as I moved to the UK and stuff, I guess my late grandfather's presence sort of resonated in me and I ended up taking the architecture approach and and yeah, and that's when I've entered the architectural technology degree.

Darren Evans: 6:11

yeah that's great. It's interesting, isn't it, how the parents and grandparents can really absolutely lives and absolutely, they're involved with kind of absolutely their.

Ali Sanduk: 6:21

Their. Their presence really shadow us from such an early stage in our life. They shape us in a way that's unimaginable.

Darren Evans: 6:31

So for those people that aren't really that familiar with Iraq and some of the history of Iraq and I'm speaking of buildings and different sites that an archaeologist may be interested in discovering can you just give us a little bit of a flavor for what that might be, what, what things your grandfather would have been involved with, and and significant sites that are over there?

Ali Sanduk: 6:53

sure, sure, so my grandfather, I mean, I'm not 100 sure on this, but I think he started practicing in mid 1940s, okays. So back then there was exploration programs in Iraq, funded by international supports, looking for just sort of discovering architectural heritage to do with Babylon, assyria and so on. Now, iraq as a nation has always been inhabited throughout history. We have always had periods of civilization and prosperness and growth. This goes back to 7,000 years before Christ and so on, and during the Middle Ages, during the Islamic Golden Age really, iraq was the center of the Islamic empire and so on.

Ali Sanduk: 7:48

So in terms of history and the depth of the history of Iraq, it is very, very rich and my grandfather worked with multiple historians and I remember my father telling me that I think Agatha Christie funded a few of these explorations that took place in Iraq and my grandfather was a friend of hers and together they got to work on a few sites. So that's roughly what Iraq is like and what my grandfather's contribution was like. But in terms of the specific era that he was sort of based in or interested in, I would say it was mostly probably islamic sort of golden age, that is, around probably 1000 ad, around that sort of area. Yeah, yeah, um, and he's also worked on ancient sort of archaeological sites, but that was probably the main period, the middle ages, basically it's probably the time he's sort of interested in and would he come and tell stories either to your father or to you, and thinking if you're living with your grandparents, I'm sure that so must have been stories in there so yeah.

Ali Sanduk: 9:02

So I mean, when my father was quite young, he used to accompany him on all of these sites and expeditions. But in terms of when I was, when I sort of started growing up, my grandfather was retired, but also he wasn't. His health wasn't sort of the best of times, let let's put it this way. And yeah, so he didn't tell us, but the stories that I've been told were mostly from my father and from my uncles as well.

Darren Evans: 9:40

On all of his adventures and how they got to discover few sites and all of these stories. Yeah, I'm imagining your grandfather as the persian version of indiana jones going out and finding these things and the treasures of history that area is going to be very rich with yeah, yeah, I mean it's, it's not.

Ali Sanduk: 9:53

It's not quite that that sort of adventurous, but for sure it was very similar in the sense that the middle east is is so opulent with history and with so many sort of mysterious civilizations that are yet to be discovered, and really everywhere you dig around Iraq you are likely to find a historical artifact.

Darren Evans: 10:18

It's, yeah, it's incredible, and so you say the age of 14,. You moved to the UK.

Ali Sanduk: 10:23

Yes, that's correct.

Darren Evans: 10:24

Huge change in culture right to the uk. Yes, that's correct. Huge change in culture, right, that's correct. Yeah, that's correct. And did you speak much english when you first uh came here?

Ali Sanduk: 10:31

no, no, no, no. So I wasn't. I wasn't able to communicate or deal with people in in such a way. So I I remember my mother used to sit me down. That's before I joined school. We came to the UK in June, I think, and school starts in September. So during these three months I remember my mum used to sit me down alongside with my sister and, yeah, we used to get taught how to certain words grammar say things, taught how to certain words grammar say things, and yeah, I mean it's sort of that process sort of guided me slowly into assimilating into society. So when I started going to school, it was a huge struggle really. Back then you try and learn the language, the syllabus, trying to make friends, while at the same time learn about the culture as well. It was a bit of an uphill ride, but we got there in the end, what would you?

Ali Sanduk: 11:32

what would you say as you look back at those early days in the uk has been the thing that you're most grateful for I think the most grateful thing I am for is the presence of my father, mother, sister, the people that, regardless of how difficult life can be, regardless of where you are and with the lack or absence of friends and supporters, they will always be there to guide you, to support you, to help you. I am a great believer that family is the single most important institution in society and to me, that became so prevalent and so obvious at a time when I came to the UK without any friends, without any help or support from anyone. Family was always there by my side. So this is the one thing I'm absolutely grateful for.

Darren Evans: 12:28

Fantastic that's the thing that I have seen through the conversations that I've had on these podcast series is that that family just keeps coming up again and again and again, and you mentioning that it's a really, really important institution. I totally agree with that, absolutely. How that not just affects young children, but also the impact that that has on those young children as they become adults. So thanks, so, thank you, and so where do you think that your passion or desire to become an architect, architectural technologist, architectural technologist I'm sorry you did that. So where do you think that your passion or desire to get into architecture as a technologist really started from?

Ali Sanduk: 13:10

I have always really been interested in science. I've really been interested in design. I mean, like I said, my father was, or he still is, an artist. He paints as a hobby, and my mother is a doctor and again my father is a university professor who teaches renewable energy. So the mixing science with art and design, that sort of, is cultivated by architecture. So architecture has always been ingrained in me without me knowing, really from such a young age.

Ali Sanduk: 13:43

Then came the presence of changing culture as such, and one thing we don't realise is how much architecture is influenced by culture and how much architecture shapes culture at the same time. So, coming from iraq, where buildings tend to be flat roof with render, you come here to the uk and they are mostly brickwork. You come to the uk and you see things like thatched roofs and cob houses in villages and in countrysides. You see different designs, and then the fact that architecture presents culture to, to viewers and to visitors, that has really sort of sharpened my interest in in architecture. And it was that journey from Iraq to the UK that enforced architecture into my identity and that's, that's how, how it all started.

Darren Evans: 14:39

And so have you got any mentors or any notable figures in your history as you've gone on this journey to better understand architecture that you would kind of make mention of, and and how they have helped and assisted with your growth and development?

Ali Sanduk: 14:56

in terms of figures that I see. I don't want to say I resemble, but I would like to resemble, or I see them as an example that I would like to follow would be someone like zaha hadid, for, for example, she happened to be from Iraq, she was born and raised there and came to the UK, and I see her as a shining example that I would love to reflect and be and what does?

Darren Evans: 15:21

she do at the moment. Who does she work for?

Ali Sanduk: 15:23

So Zaha Hadid, I think she did a degree in maths, mathematics, and then she discovered her passion for architecture and she decided to change to architecture and become an architect and, after practicing for a few years, she opened her own practice Zaha Hadid Architects and now she she passed away in 2015 or 16. Okay, but her architecture is renowned across the whole world. She's done projects in most countries around the world, with offices scattered almost everywhere. So she is a prime example of a perseverant architect who follows the ambition and tries to make a change in the world.

Ali Sanduk: 16:14

But in terms of design, I would say probably someone like frank lloyd's. Right, he's an american architect. He is interested in merging building with landscape and the environment surrounding it, and his most notable work would be the waterfall house in virginia in america right, where he basically designed a house. It blends in so much it's almost like in a camouflage with the surrounding trees and rivers and so on. So, yeah, so he's he's. He's probably an architect that I would love to, to adopt his style, basically, and be similar to him in that manner.

Darren Evans: 16:55

And so what is it that you're doing at the moment in your current practice that you really quite like? What is it that you're most proud of?

Ali Sanduk: 17:03

So working for Chapman Taylor has been an incredible, incredible journey. They've basically work in all sorts of sectors and when I started in their residential team we worked on quite a few high-rise buildings across London, which was very eye-opening really for me, because before that I worked in low-rise and now I'm working on high-rise and it's a completely different sort of ball game. That journey was very, very, very enlightening. And then moving on to working for the transportation team has been another sort of enlightening experience. So as a whole, working at Chapman Taylor is by itself a very, very enjoyable experience. It's a continuous, continuous learning journey.

Ali Sanduk: 17:57

Every day when I walk into the office and I leave I've learned something within those seven hours that I've worked there. So that by itself has been something that is quite enjoyable and something that I'm very proud of been something that is quite enjoyable and something that I'm very proud of. In terms of the projects, working on currently some airports around the UK has been quite enjoyable. I mean it's difficult to pinpoint a specific project because every project is different. Every project requires different level of details, different level of circumstances, different ideas behind it. So because of this, it's difficult to pinpoint one specific project. I'm just going to say all of them.

Darren Evans: 18:41

Is there a project that you're working on that has been notable from a sustainability point of view?

Ali Sanduk: 18:46

So sustainability is always at the core of what we do and of designs. We currently are using two softwares to calculate both the embodied energy as well as the operational energy, and these softwares are mostly utilized during the concept stage. In terms of what I do, it is mostly sort of delivery stage. So that would be stage four on our IBA frame of work and on that basis we tend to incorporate the design has already been done, the technologies and the ideas has already been put in place. We basically just try and connect it and make it constructible and work. So on that basis we've there are projects where we've used things like air source heat pump, for instance, or projects where we've used brie soles, or projects where we've I mean, we will we will explore this probably in more details but every project has a specific sort of niche about it that makes it stand out in terms of its sustainability. So again, I can't really think of one specific project in that sense.

Darren Evans: 20:03

So it sounds like that every single project that you're doing has got its own unique sustainability feature. Yes, I'll say that, yeah, yeah. And so, specifically for yourself as a, as an architectural technologist, what impact would you say that you can have, or that you do have, on building a more sustainable building?

Ali Sanduk: 20:27

so the aim is obviously in in every building is to create a net zero building. That's roughly the aim is. Sometimes that comes in by the fact that you've got a building there already existing and do you demolish it and build a brand new building on top.

Ali Sanduk: 20:48

So you're talking retrofit now yeah or do you, or do or do you utilize the existing structure right in order to save the carbon that has the embodied carbon that already exists and you just retrofit on top of it. So, as an architectural technologist, this would be one of the things, one of these decisions that you would take into consideration whether it's worth utilizing what is existing, not necessarily just in terms of structure. It could be in terms of facade, it could be in terms of other finishes, interior finishes or so on. It could be the arrangement of either internal arrangements or external arrangements of building elements. So all of these would be decisions that an architectural technologist can play. These would be decisions that an architectural technologist can play. These could be the roles that architectural technologists can play in the project lifeline.

Ali Sanduk: 21:37

And, yeah, these these are basically like a sort of a day-to-day sort of decisions that we have to make. But, yeah, that that would probably be, yeah, one contribution that we have. Another contribution would be we could potentially advise the client in considering certain things that he wasn't aware of. So, for example, having a thermal mass somewhere in the building to utilize solar gain, or whatever it could be, adapting a certain technology into the building, and our role would be to basically to coordinate between the structure engineer, the, the MEP designer if we have an environmental consultants as well. So within that sort of field of cooperating and managing and trying to get all of these working, you can influence decisions in terms of sustainability and environmental issues.

Darren Evans: 22:37

I think that that word that you mentioned about influence is really quite a key and important word. You may not be able to do everything yourself, but what you can do is have a say in or influence how things are going to progress and move forward.

Ali Sanduk: 22:53

Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, I mean we. Being an architect is, or being an architectural technologist in my case you are really constantly, constantly out of your depth. You are constantly being the jack of all trades. You have to know everything not everything, but you have to know a huge amount on structure, but not enough to be a structure engineer. You have to know a huge amount on pipework, electric work, but not enough to be an MEP designer. You have to know a fair amount about, let's say, facade, but you're not a facade engineer. So, at the end of the day, when you have a client, when the client comes up to you, the client is not really aware of all of this. The client could be a doctor, they could be carpenter, they could be anything, as your role as a consultant is to is to basically open their eyes and to influence them and to guide them through this minefield. And yeah, so influencing is is a huge part of our role that we happen to do without even knowing, on a day to day basis.

Darren Evans: 24:03

It's interesting. You kind of talk about influence. That takes me back to the conversation that we had initially, which is the influence that your grandparents and parents had on you that have led you to be where you are. So, although you're not related to your clients, and you probably don't want to be related to your clients, that example that is being given to you consciously, and also subconsciously, by your family members appears to be playing out quite well in a good way, right, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, they've influenced you for good and you're looking to do the same thing for other people that you work with on a day-to-day basis.

Ali Sanduk: 24:39

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, at the end of the day, we entered that field to make a positive change and we try and do it through passively influencing the client or the public into what is out there, what is the future like, how to make a change. And, yeah, we have been influenced in the past by, obviously, our family members, our community, our surrounding environment, and we, the humans, tend to be influenced quite a lot by our communities and our environment and that's why we tend to stick in living in communities as opposed to individuals.

Darren Evans: 25:21

So what is it that keeps you in the role that you're doing at the moment? Why do you not go off and change careers? Why don't you go out of the construction industry? What is it that keeps you here?

Ali Sanduk: 25:31

You're putting some thoughts into my mind. I would say what keeps me into my current role is the diversity that architectural industry brings, like I said previously, every so when you say diversity, do you mean people diversity or do you mean diversity in the tasks that you?

Ali Sanduk: 25:49

diversity in all sorts. Diversity in all sorts. So, for example, I spend my day-to-day life contacting structural engineers, contacting other consultants, trying to figure out how to make this issue work, this problem that we currently have work. So there is constant collaboration. There's constant teamwork taking place. Now, this is diversity in terms of profession, in terms of individuals. There's also diversity in terms of tasks, in terms of projects. Every project is completely different. Every requirement of the project is different from its previous ones. There's constant change in the industry. When I started working in 2016, and I compare it to now, planning rules have changed quite a lot. Building regulations have changed, technologies have changed, client awareness towards sustainability has increased. It's not a stale field. Architecture is constantly changing and this is really what entices me, what keeps me going, what keeps me looking forward towards every day and every project and every challenge there is. So yeah, so this is really what interests me a lot.

Darren Evans: 27:24

I'm wondering now if there is a proverb that you may be able to share with us. I don't know if there's an Iraqi proverb or some form of mantra that you have found useful for yourself that others may also find useful.

Ali Sanduk: 27:34

I think there's a saying I think it might have been mahatma gandhi who said it be the change you want to see in others. Okay, this is really the focal point that tends to drive me, that tends to make me sort of want to keep on going forward. I would say this is probably the driving force that is probably not only inside of me, but inside of almost every individual, which is just to create a positive impact on the surrounding environment, on your friends, on your clients, on your family, on your community. Is that change that I want to see in others, that I tend to wake up every morning, have a shower and then go to work and progress and deliver for the end user the results that they are looking for?

Darren Evans: 28:27

I love that. I think that takes us on really nicely to the demolition zone, and I think that it does that because in order for us to progress and learn, we need to either let go of or destroy things that are not helping us move in a positive or in a good direction, and so really excited to hear what your myth that you want to destroy is. So are you ready to go to the demolition zone?

Ali Sanduk: 28:53

let's, let's do it, let's do it, let's.

Darren Evans: 28:55

Let's do it. Well, we are now in the demolition zone. Ali, you have created this abstract, I think, of an ancient city. It's got an arch, yeah, and there's a lovely dome there at the top and it looks like a bridge on top of the arch, kind of connecting the two together. It's not a tall creation, it's fairly low level, but one of considered thought and beauty, should I say thank you, piece of art.

Darren Evans: 29:22

Thanks for it thanks for doing this. This is the, this is the artist coming out in you that you never knew that you had. So what does this represent for you? What is this myth here that you want to destroy?

Ali Sanduk: 29:33

there is a sort of a general consensus that architects have more or less the sole responsibility. They are the arbitrators of sustainability. They are the ones that tend to be the driving force behind sustainability. They should be. It is their sole responsibility. No other sort of profession holds as much responsibility towards sustainability as architects do. And, yeah, this is one of these myths that I sort of would like to not just demolish but eviscerate. Really, I think we're all, as individuals, hold certain responsibility. I think we're all, as individuals, hold certain responsibility. Even in our day to day life, in terms of professional life, in terms of our community. We all hold certain responsibilities towards sustainability. It could be from something as small as placing a piece of paper in the recyclable bin instead of the non-recyclable. Placing a piece of paper in the recyclable bin instead of the non-recyclable. It could be something like leaving your bedroom light off, turning it off when you, when you leave the room.

Darren Evans: 30:44

So I'd love it if my kids did that more.

Ali Sanduk: 30:46

To be honest with you, ali, just that simple thing I mean, I know, I know, I know that's when the energy bill will drops down massively. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yes, yes, yes, I know, I know it's, it's one of I think it's changing our day-to-day habits is basically what it entails, and it's one of these things that is probably quite difficult for individuals to practice changing something that you're so used to, your daily rituals but, at the same time, I think it will have a positive reverberation. It is something that is quite, quite important, not only for us as individuals, but for the community, for, for, for the future of the next generations and so on.

Darren Evans: 31:32

Well, I think you've cleared that up. I think that myth just now needs to be destroyed by you physically.

Ali Sanduk: 31:38

Oh, really okay, I'm. I'm a builder, I'm not destroyer anything with value.

Darren Evans: 31:48

Yes, what you're doing is you're destroying something of no value and se is harming things. So when you're ready, you can destroy that here we go.

Ali Sanduk: 31:57

Let's, let's try it.

Darren Evans: 31:58

Let's, let's have a go okay, two swipes of the left hand structure falls to the floor. That's it. It's gone, gone, gone. No more existence.

Darren Evans: 32:11

Ali, it's been great having you on the thank you very much thanks appreciate your time, your wisdom, appreciate the, the stories that you've told as well, especially the personal ones of your childhood, and I think that there will be people out there listening to this podcast that will be able to connect and identify with that and hope that they see you as someone that's gone on and is still on a journey which is progressive and is helping us all to create a more sustainable environment.

Ali Sanduk: 32:42

Thank you, darren, for having me, and thanks to Thriving Construction and best of luck, you guys, and it's been an absolute pleasure being here and hopefully I'll see you at some point.

Darren Evans: 32:56

Absolutely, we can get you back on at another time. There's going to be other opportunities for us to reconnect in this way. Before we really close off this conversation, I just wanted to ask you one last question. Yeah, sure, go for it. So if there was one piece of advice that you could give to somebody just about to go into university that is studying a topic that's connected to construction, what piece of advice would that be?

Ali Sanduk: 33:23

well. My, my advice to people that are willing or are looking to go through a similar journey as me would be first of all, believe in yourself. Make sure that, regardless of how arduous and tedious a specific task may look, but the end of it would be very fruitful. These would be the challenges that you're going to face in life and you just have to conquer them. More or less in terms of professionally speaking, I started my career in a small practice and moved to a bigger practice, and the reason behind it was it was a calculated move by me to make sure that by starting in a small practice, you will be exposed to a wide range of responsibilities, the whole journey of construction, and you will get to understand how the industry works in such a short period of time. It's, but it was basically a crash course.

Ali Sanduk: 34:29

Once you've got to that stage and once you consider yourself as you've learned and you've you've got to a comfortable position, you then want to challenge yourself, and this is what I did. So I started challenging myself by moving to a completely different ballgame, moving to Chapman Taylor, and there I got to work on high-rise buildings a completely different experience. It was a minefield. Buildings completely different experience. It was a minefield, and then I started to challenge myself by working in transportation. So there's this constant hunger to challenge yourself, to try and discover new things. A constantly developing industry, a constantly developing field. So always challenge yourself, always believe in yourself. And if I manage to make it to where I am now, I'm sure everyone can. That's wonderful.

Darren Evans: 35:25

I think, from what I've taken from what you said, if I was about to start in university, I would have heard that the challenges will come, but they're there to make you better, absolutely to improve you. So believe in yourself, enjoy the challenges, enjoy the challenges and keep going absolutely, absolutely.

Ali Sanduk: 35:43

I couldn't say any better.

Darren Evans: 35:45

Well, that's what you just said to me and that's what I've heard. Ali, it's been an absolute pleasure. Likewise, thank you.

Darren Evans: 35:50

Thank you very much thanks I'd like you to do me a favor, and I don't mean here just to ask you to subscribe and to follow, but what I'd really like you to do is to share this podcast with as many people as you think would benefit from it. I would love to maintain the quality of people that are joining me on this podcast, and so, in order for me to do that, I really need your help. It could be somebody that's looking to get into an industry, but they're not quite sure what industry they want to get into. Maybe it's a teenager that is just finishing their GCSEs or starting A-levels. Maybe it's somebody that's doing an English degree at university, but is not quite sure what they want to do with that degree. So I invite you just to share this podcast with as many people that you know so that we can grow this community, so that we can maintain the quality, engaging conversations that we're having together. Thank you for your help.