Speaker 1: 0:00

The science is telling us very clearly that what we're doing as human beings just existing just me coming on the train to visit you today to have this discussion I've created some emissions. That's a good thing, because it's allowed us to be here and communicate and do all of these things. But the science tells us now, right understood, we need to move away from that. Now. That's the mitigation piece that we talk about. So we need to adapt to the changes in the climate and how that's, driving different weather patterns that we're seeing rain, heat, all of those different things failing crops, migration but that's a matter of us adapting to the change that is already in place. But we know the science now.

Speaker 1: 0:40

So we need to mitigate against these damaging any further. And that's where your one and a half degree, two degree scenarios come in. And that's always a difficult one for some people to a concept, because to you or I, half a degree is not going to make any difference at all. But if you're a migrating animal, if you're coral, if you're a crop, if you're, that makes a huge difference and that's where these big swings are going to come in. We know we've caused the problem. We need to create a society. I mean, these are big subject areas, but you know, we need to create a society that can deliver what everyone needs in a fair way, but in a lower carbon way, so that we're not damaging things.

Speaker 2: 1:24

Hello and welcome to the Thriving Construction podcast. Today we have Martin Fahy with us from Mitsubishi. Martin, great to have you here on the show.

Speaker 1: 1:34

Brilliant. Thank you very much for having me, darren.

Speaker 2: 1:37

So I think that there's probably a good section of our listeners that have never heard of you, but they've heard of Mitsubishi and the organization that you work for, so was wondering if you might be able to just do a brief introduction and maybe just focus on the, the role that you've got at the moment and what that means.

Speaker 1: 1:55

Yeah, of course yeah, mitsubishi Electric are part of the, the, the wider Mitsubishi corporation. There's a clue in the name, as I'm fond of saying. So we manufacture products that consume electricity to deliver another product or service that a building may want. So heating is an example for a heat pump, but lots of other technologies such as lifts and escalators, factory automation, robotics, semiconductors, automotive componentry. So they're a business of very long standing, started in 1921. So we have not long had our 100th anniversary, and it's an interesting time for us as a business because we're looking now at you know, what does the next hundred years look like for us as a business? Making, developing, innovating in the sort of markets that we operate in Sounds like an exciting place to work.

Speaker 1: 2:56

It is. I find that it is very much so. Yeah, we. It's brave, maybe, to claim uniqueness, but I think we are unique in the breadth of products and solutions that we are involved in and therefore, that we can have a discussion across a wider piece. So that discussion what I mentioned there about, you know lifts and escalators, vertical transport within a building, how how do we best integrate that as well as then looking at how we control the wider building, keep it at a comfortable temperature and an efficient operation system as it is. So I think we're fairly unique in that, with that broad array of solutions that we can bring to bear, a really pressing issue.

Speaker 1: 3:50

You know that we all know that we've got to make changes very rapidly on this agenda. What is it that you do? What's your role in the company? So I'm the head of sustainability for UK and Ireland, so that involves me working with a colleague in the UK. We are part of a big global business, so we look at how do we fit in with what the global business has stated to the market about where, what their net zero journey looks like and there's been an announcement of that actually only this week, sort of hot off the press about us revising our science-based targets to fit in line with the one and a half degree net zero trajectory, which is a good step for us. So how do we work with the wider global business and address, you know, adapt and certainly mitigate to make sure that our business is not adversely impacting on climate change? But then there's the very much the UK specific and the markets that we operate in in a post Brexit world and what regulation looked like for that and how do we make sure we're ideally ahead of the curve on those things. And the third and vital audience for us as a team is our colleagues. Colleagues are going to be central to us in achieving our wider goals. They know they're part of the business best and the demands and requests that they're getting.

Speaker 1: 5:29

So, yeah, three distinct areas is the way I would describe my role at the moment, and I'm doing that for our uk and irish offices branches. And what's your favorite part of the role? I've I've always enjoyed the communication part of the role. Initially there was some abject terror to that. You know to be in, put, put out front and find yourself sat in rooms talking with the logs of yourselves down, with what the viewers can't see is cameras moving around in our face.

Speaker 1: 6:00

That certainly wasn't what I envisaged as part of my future when I started my apprenticeship as a refrigeration engineer back in 1985. That wasn't part of it, but yet I do find myself enjoying it. I think it's vital that we communicate and collaborate. Most certainly, I'm sure collaboration will come up later in this discussion, and if I can be part of that and have the privilege of representing the company in these sort of forums and others, then I do really enjoy that yeah, in a previous life I had a sales role and my sales role took me into other businesses and sometimes it felt as though I wanted to communicate with them, but they weren't interested in communicating with me.

Speaker 2: 6:52

And so I'm wondering, do you kind of, how do you? How does that sit and feel with you with the difference that you're trying to make within the industry, with the services that you've got, the desire that's behind that coming from the wider mitsubishi organization, and then how that is perceived or received when you send an email or pick up the phone or or reach out to your, to your clients well, as I said, there's, there's, there's been a real journey on this sustainability subject that we've certainly seen in my 20 years since I've been with Mitsubishi Electric.

Speaker 1: 7:31

Very early on sort of nine, 15 years ago, we created a document and a, you know, maybe rather grandiose at the time. We called it a philosophy, we call that green gateway, and that came from us having those discussions with, with various parts of the supply chain in the whole built environment. At the time, I think it's fair to say we were very focused on the contract part of the supply chain and still are, and they're a vitally important part of our business. They're key to purchasing the equipment, installing it properly, maintaining it properly. But in that period of time we were thinking well, we'd like to take this discussion about how you could best apply a heat pump solution, for example, a ventilation solution, whatever it is, vrf. We need to take that further up the decision making chain. And even back back then, all those years ago so I'm talking sort of 15 years ago then we could see that there was more need for us to have a defined position but also a willingness to engage wider about how to best apply solutions for a more sustainable outcome, and I think that was well received.

Speaker 1: 9:03

We were early with that sort of message. Net zero wasn't a phrase that was even contemplated at the time. Don't ever remember I can't remember the first time I ever heard it, actually, but it certainly wasn't 15 years ago, that's for sure. And then we've, we've, we've gone along on that journey with, with our current prospective customers to say, well, how can we, how can we achieve this goal? We're fond of saying and it was coined by a colleague of mine that net zero is a is a destination. That we're all. We all know what the destination is, but there isn't a map. So it's a destination but no map to get there.

Speaker 1: 9:42

If you make a decision today to turn left or right, you'll be on a completely different road as to where to get to net zero. So I'm fortunate enough to work for a business, a global business, that recognizes they have a part to play in this, that they have very long and very complicated supply chains. You know, upstream and downstream, and they are taking what I think is a very honest and pragmatic approach to how do we address our impacts within that supply chain for a company of our size. And that's where recent announcements revised science-based targets and things like that come from. So I think when you're out in a head of sustainability role, you do need that senior support and buy-in, and I'm fortunate enough to work for a business that understands that, and they have a part to play in the solutions.

Speaker 2: 10:40

How long do you think that that's been embedded in their minds?

Speaker 1: 10:59

this concept, getting on or forging the path to net zero. I have a UK position so I can't speak for the global position, but I think they've been on a very similar sort of period of time sort of pathway. They're very good looking, very long term, as I say. So we're a hundred year old business, already established in 1921, creating products, as our president at the time described. As for the good of society, electricity in 1921 was, you know, not as widely used and understood, I suppose, as it is today, most definitely. But it was an evolution of the company to say, well, we can see that that's where the part of the future is. So that was their establishment of that in 1921.

Speaker 1: 11:52

So now, you know, 100 years later, we can see, now that there's these big macro discussions going on, is it, is it an electric economy that we're going for, which, of course, we're very much behind? If something can be electrified, then we should be doing that. We should be doing that now, and the UK is. If you look at the pie chart of where energy is being used and therefore emissions are being created, our demand, we consume an awful lot in buildings and in surface transport and if you break that down slightly further in the buildings, a lot of energy use in the creation of heat, and that on both of those markets. Historically, certainly in that period of time, in that 100 years period of time, has been fired, literally fired by fossil fuels, and we need to get away from those things. So it's it's very clear if something can be electrified, then let's do it, because we can. It can be applied today, the rate of change can happen today at the speed required and of course, electrically driven equipment buys into future greening of the of the grid.

Speaker 2: 13:02

Last year what we were 40, 45 percent renewables on our grid and that's only going to get better one of the things that you mentioned earlier on was uh was brexit I know that there have been some concerns that I've heard from from some of my clients, that there isn't going to be enough or there aren't going to be enough heat pumps around, partly because of Brexit, partly because of the supply chain issues that can exist within organizations like yourself. Do you buy?

Speaker 1: 13:34

into that. Well, I'm slightly more optimistic than that. I mean certainly putting in another. You know, another border is just another barrier that you have to cross for for any business. Anybody watching this will understand that it's another piece of paper, at the very least, that you have to fill in, or it's a misalignment with a tax regime or something like that. So, yeah, brexit is is an added complication. The uk, then, as it has a position whereby they can create their own rules and regulations. Europe are very much globally the EU I'm talking about now are very much a leader in this setting of environmental standards and what is required, whether it be food or energy or anything in their markets or anything in their markets. So I think they will always be a beacon for us and others to follow, if you like. If we meet or exceed the European requirements, we've certainly got a solution that will be best suited around the world.

Speaker 2: 14:39

So do you think that there's going to be a supply chain issue then with getting the heat heat pumps in in into sites and into your clients?

Speaker 1: 14:47

well when the uk is no different. So the uk has got very broad ambitions to install heat pumps because, as I say, they work, they're applicable. Today, the skills largely exist. Now I'm not underestimating the skills challenge. We speak to a lot of people about that. We're training a lot of engineers, technicians, service people on heat pumps, but what we're doing is we're transferring their existing skills so they already know how to install pipes properly, wire something properly, site something properly. Yeah, a heat pump is a different heat source to a cast boiler or to an oil boiler, to an lpg, whatever it is. So it's applying those existing skills, but we certainly need more of them.

Speaker 1: 15:36

So I'm not going to make light of the of the um skills shortage that is out there, but the thing I wanted to get to there, darren, is we're not the only country that is making this change.

Speaker 1: 15:46

So the UK is looking to shift from where we are now domestic heat pump supply of 60, 70, 80,000 a year going in to an order of around 600,000 a year going in. And then, if we're to stay ahead of where we need to be, we need to be at a rate of sort of a million a year going in, which is the rate at what gas boilers are going in 1.2, 1.4 million a year. So we're at that point, that pivot point now, where we need to switch away from dependence on fossil fuels. Easy for me to sit here and say that Fossil fuels have got us all to where we are today, in industrial revolution and all of those sort of things. We have a very mature gas supply grid in in the uk, but we need that. What that was then we know. Now there's a different way. Heat pumps are a proven technology and we need to apply them at pace, in the right way, so that we wean ourself off this dependence on fossil fuels.

Speaker 2: 16:50

There'll be people listening to this that will have heard of heat pumps but be unfamiliar with how they work and why it's kind of different to a gas boiler, or even will kind of ask why do I even need a heat pump anyway? Or even we're kind of asked why do I even need a heat pump anyway. Can you share your thoughts on why you might need a heat pump and also how a heat pump is different from your combination boiler or your standard boiler that you'd find in the house?

Speaker 1: 17:16

So your standard boiler is a heat exchanger, so it burns gas to create heat and then the heat exchanger puts that heat into water the water for you to bathe, wash, do the washing up, take a shower but also then pump through underfloor heating or radiators. And that's been the established way of heating in the UK for 40 years or more and that's why we have an established gas supply network. Now gas is now a problem. It's harder to get hold of the people who the nations who are in control of it are not necessarily the nations that we want longer term relationships with sometimes. But also when you burn a fossil fuel, it's a one time deal. You burn it. It releases its energy in the form of heat, which is what we want as a society. It's a one-time deal. That's burnt, it's gone, then creates emissions in the form of co2. So you've burnt a fossil fuel. Co2 is released into the atmosphere, also different particulates and things. So it creates depending on what you're burning and how clean the system is that you're burning in creates air problems. That's another subject area that's being talked about a lot. But the top and the bottom of it is a finite source that releases a lot of emissions and we need to move away from that. That makes sense to do that Now. How do we move away from that?

Speaker 1: 18:51

Well, one of the main solutions to be able to do that is a heat pump, and you asked me to explain how a heat pump works. Well, the the most common way to describe it is is it's like your domestic refrigerator or freezer at home, but in reverse. So it's the same system that at the heart of a heat pump is is a is a process called a vapor compression cycle. So four main components an evaporator, a condenser, an expansion device and a compressor. Luckily for me trying to explain a heat pump, they all do what their name tells you. They do.

Speaker 1: 19:28

So the refrigerant goes around this system and what it does is it changes state. So, if you remember from your physics lessons at school, when something changes state water is a common one changes from a liquid to a vapor in the form of steam. It's absorbed heat to turn that water into steam, and the same happens when reverse, as you take energy out of that water by cooling it down, it turns into a solid. Now, we can't pump a solid. No one can pump a solid around, so a vapor compressing cycle makes the most of that physics of changing state, and we do that using a liquid called a refrigerant, and that refrigerant would boil.

Speaker 1: 20:19

Now we're used to boiling things at high temperatures, like a kettle boiling at 100 degrees, because that's what temperature water boils at in that atmosphere, but a refrigerant doesn't. A refrigerant would boil at a far lower temperature. So that's the bit to understand, and that's why when people say, but how can it possibly absorb heat when it's cold outside? Well, if the refrigerant looks to change its state and turn from a liquid to a vapor, that would typically do want to do that at around minus 40, minus 30. So, in theory, any temperature above minus 30, there's potential heat in that for a heat pump to be able to grab.

Speaker 2: 21:02

So minus 30, you're talking minus 30 degrees celsius here in celsius?

Speaker 1: 21:06

yes, most definitely. Yeah, now, in theory, we don't operate down at those sort of levels, but minus 20, minus 25. With modern heat pumps, with modern refrigerants, they certainly can operate in those areas Supply temperatures, water temperatures. At the other end, if you can supply water at a lower temperature, then the efficiencies get better and better. It's a bit wordy I suppose I've lived with heat pumps for a long while, but that's essentially what we're doing Changing state of a liquid via known technology and that absorbs naturally occurring heat from the atmosphere. Most of these are air, what's called air to water, and that's why they're deemed as a renewable technology, because as long as the sun comes up every day, that's creating some heat that is in the atmosphere that a heat pump can exploit.

Speaker 2: 22:00

That's perfect, because there are people that listen to this podcast that are not as familiar with things like heat pumps as you are so that's great. That's a fantastic explanation. Thank you. I'm wondering where you see the future of heat pumps. So the technology has been there for a considerable amount of time, but has not been maybe as long as the concept of burning a fuel to get heat.

Speaker 2: 22:27

I'm thinking here logs on a fire, gather around, stay warm that's right, yeah, yeah so where do you, where do you see, or how do you see and I'm not asking you to give away any secrets here of the organization, but how do you see that technology being built as we move?

Speaker 1: 22:44

forward. The way I explain when I'm asked this question is to in your mind's eye is to imagine three squares on a piece of paper in front of you, and the left-hand square is sources of heat. Now, that could be what we've already discussed naturally occurring sources in the air, in the ground, in a water source, or it could be what historically would have been deemed a waste heat source. So there would have been some sort of industrial process or, nowadays, a data center, or these cloud computing centers that are built everywhere. Those are all kicking out amounts of heat. So sources of heat on the left, forget the one in the middle. At the moment, on the right we have a requirement for heat. In the jargon they're called sinks, sources and sinks. So they are broadly in two areas space heating and water heating. So you've got a big demand for those in the UK. For both of those. The technology that links a source with a sink middle square is a heat pump, a big heat pump, a heat pump a, a, a networked heat pump. So increasingly, as we look at buildings individually, we have technologies that can move heat from one room to another. So we could be in this room and be a net exporter of heat. The room next door might have heat to spare as well, same as us. So that's two rooms. And then the third room is actually please send me some heat. So the technologies nowadays are very good at heat is. The goal here is grabbing that heat and moving it to where it can be best used. Don't waste it anymore.

Speaker 1: 24:34

Back in 1980s, when I started, most equipment was cooling only equipment. To me, a heat pump in nine back in those days was a product that could heat and cool. So there's that's we've. We've developed that, that language now and and it's being, it's being talked about. So, yeah, heat pumps are the, the technology that can create this change that we need by grabbing heat, moving it, upgrading it in its process and then using it somewhere where that heat is required.

Speaker 1: 25:11

I think you talked about you know the the different types of buildings. So as we look at multi-story buildings, people often say, well, how can we do that? I'm in there, they look like what they look like. So we don't want heat pumps hanging off the side of a big, tall building, do we? Well, no, but we've been heating those buildings with heat pumps is for a lot of years my it's certainly my entire career. But that's come about as a as a byproduct of of those buildings having a cooling requirement. And that's that technology what we call variable refrigerant flow technology that moves heat around a building. That's a heat pump. It's just my, my three square analogy. It's just a very complicated heat pump that can link 30 different rooms that are all doing different things and having different requirements to another 30 rooms or a demand for hot water or a swimming pool or whatever. So it's, it's a pivotal technology really. We we used that language back in green day gateway in the day because it really is. It's a, it's pivotal in that it of what it can do.

Speaker 2: 26:20

Sounds like you've got an engineering background, martin, just by the way that you're speaking is that right?

Speaker 1: 26:24

Well, I've got an apprenticeship based background. I started in 1985 when I left school, I was just shy of 16 and I knew I wanted to do something within an engineering field and I found myself being an apprentice refrigeration engineer and, yeah, the rest is history, as they say. I'm still in that industry now and I certainly would not change my apprentice route to where I am now, because the, the concepts and the engineering and the wider things that I learned from other skill sets at the time from the electricians, the pipe fitters, the plumbers, the, I think, has stood me in good stead all the way through. So, yeah, a fair amount. An apprentice practical background, darren.

Speaker 2: 27:17

Yeah where did uh? Where do you think that that stemmed from? Were you quite young and into playing around with things and understand how things are taken apart and put back together? Did you have a yeah parent or a family member that was into that type of thing very?

Speaker 1: 27:33

Very much so. Yeah, my uncles, my grandfather, were all engineers, were all apprentice trained and, yes, I was always fascinated by how things worked, taking things apart and how they worked, and I'm sure you've heard this before, lego was a major thing for me at the time and it was often something that I was bought, you know, at special occasions and that more technical side of Lego. So I think that sort of background, yeah, is definitely what took me to a vocational, you know, wish to work in engineering. I had no idea about refrigeration, how it worked. I walked into my first plant room which was supplying a single space that we were maintaining. It was a half a million cubic feet, I remember the number and we were maintaining it at minus 40, and there were these big machines that I learned were called compressors, whirring away and I had no idea how it worked, but it just seemed endlessly fascinating and, luckily enough for me, the chief engineer could see that, I think, and offered me the job.

Speaker 2: 28:48

So it seems like from a young age you were interested in building things as opposed to taking things apart. Was it a mixture of the two?

Speaker 1: 28:55

Mixture of the two. You've got to take it apart to find out what's going on on the inside, haven't you? Yeah? So I was lucky enough to be able to take big compressors apart and rebuild them and put them back together and learn that way, and learn with some time-served engineers who were only too willing to show you how to do things. If you were willing to listen, they were willing to teach you. You know, and so, as I say, I wouldn't change that for the world. It gave me a good grounding.

Speaker 2: 29:25

I've spoken to quite a few people that are into Lego, so I don't think there's any shock or horror. No, no shame in that, yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:32

Yeah, yeah, it's just amazing's just amazing. Just that ability to have a box of bits and just create something out of it. I suppose and yeah, I've enjoyed it ever since what's the most obscure or creative LEGO thing that you've built.

Speaker 1: 29:50

Well, I could go by this. I didn't think this was going to go this way. Darren, you were going to get this bit of detail out of me, but my family were good enough to buy me the saturn 5 rocket, the rocket that took man to the moon. Lego do a model of that and it took a lot of hours here. I had to really concentrate on it, but it was just a huge joy to to work it out and and get that built yeah, and has it got its?

Speaker 2: 30:16

its designed treasured place in your home it is.

Speaker 1: 30:20

That's the problem, because it's a meter tall. So where do you put, where do you put these things? So I'm rapidly, you run out. I have a very patient, wonderful wife who is able to accommodate these things. But yeah, so it does take up some space it's good.

Speaker 2: 30:33

It's good. I love that. I think it's um, I think it's always good to reflect back on things that have influenced us of where we're at now and just kind of take a moment just to just to give some appreciation to that. You mentioned that your, your uncles were, were quite fundamental in terms of you developing in that way. How would you say that other work colleagues and who has there been that within the professional realm that's shaped your career and and help forge who you are?

Speaker 1: 31:03

well. I mean, if I go right the way back to the beginning, we I, I worked as I say, I was an apprentice to a refrigerant refrigeration engineer. Time served vince. Hopefully he's watching. I hope you're doing well. And yeah, he, he had, you know, just so much practical knowledge of how to apply what you were learning in a college environment. So it was the great advantage for me, I think, was was I had a job that was working with 17 other engineers and technicians who all had their own different disciplines, but every single one of them was willing to teach you and talk you through something, whether it be welding or you know whatever it was, and that that took me on from.

Speaker 1: 31:51

From that stage, and I I like you, darren found myself myself in a sales role for another manufacturer back in the day, and it was. It came after I'd done product support roles. I was helping the sales guys who were on the road generating quotes for them. You know, just very similar to how it's done now. Still now, the way you learn, that you learn all those bits and bobs. And then you know I thought I can do this selling thing. I'll give it a go, you know. And now I went and got keys and a car and an 80Z, as it was back then. That was your area.

Speaker 1: 32:33

Go out and sell some of this stuff and, as I think I've already mentioned, it was applying what I'd learned. It certainly wasn't a hard sell. It wasn't your classic sort of double glazing sat on someone's sofa until they signed something sell. It was helping them. They had a project, they wanted a solution. How could this be applied? Working for different manufacturers, manufacturers new things would come along and you would have to go out and explain those.

Speaker 1: 33:00

I think if I was telling myself my 15 year old self something now, it would be to learn to present and and speak and sell a concept. And because that certainly wasn't taught to me in the school I went to back then, but I think that's a skill that everybody has to have, don't they? Because selling I always enjoyed my time selling, because the best idea in the world could sit in a drawer, couldn't it? Unless somebody said, well, I've got to go out and tell people about this now.

Speaker 1: 33:33

So that's what I saw it as was working with people often at that time a lot older than I was who'd been doing this a long while, and saying you know, have a look at this or how can I help you with that? And I think the key to it really was for me certainly was it was deliver on what you said you were going to do. If you was going to say to someone, I I don't know the answer to that, I learned pretty quickly that's not a problem to say you don't know the answer to something, but if you say I will get the answer to you by next week, as long as you do that, you make sure you do that you've learned something and they know they can rely on you.

Speaker 2: 34:14

I think that's a really interesting point. You know kind of two points I've picked up on those. One is the ability to tell a story or to to bring life to an idea so someone can understand what that idea is like and it's real to them. And then that second thing, which is that credibility, which is telling a story which is authentic and it is true and it is real and that can be relied on as opposed to a fable or absolutely something that's not true and it's like, well, yeah, you know he said he's a storyteller, don't, don't worry about that, he's talking nonsense.

Speaker 2: 34:46

Versus the yeah, absolutely. The things that come out of his mouth absolutely credible and it's great, I can rely on them. I know that he's going to deliver on that and I think that that that's what we all face in life, irrespective of the position that we're in or the company that we work for. We've all got these ideas and these concepts that we need to tell one another, and I think that it is a skill that probably could be focused on more in schools Maybe I can focus on it more with my own family and my children is how do you take a concept and help somebody to understand that, but then how do you make sure that you are true in the things that you're saying and that you can be relied on so that that person can keep coming back to you because you're adding them value? Exactly that.

Speaker 1: 35:32

Yeah, I mean what I was always told many years ago, that you know, most valuable thing it's not necessarily that initial sale, it's someone who's willing to come back to you to buy something again. You know that repeat customer basis, and that's only got more. You know choice has only got more, more diverse for all of us and you know we carry a supercomputer in our pocket. We can, if we don't like one supplier, one bank, one shop, we look somewhere else, don't we definitely? Yeah, and that's exactly the same with the, what we're talking about here in this, these solutions that we have ahead of us, because we can't, you know, we can't expect mrs jones of 22 acacia avenue to know those things. And and why should? Why should she? You know she's running a household, raising a family. They're out working. You know they want yes, they want efficient and ideally environmentally sound heating system in their home. But let's be honest, what they primarily want is one that's reliable and works for them and is cost effective, that they can afford. And you know I don't think all the answers are in place for that just yet. You know, whenever you make this big shift and we've done it before we talked earlier about that solid fuel time of our life. We and that's what we were doing the coal man would deliver you a back you know filthy, dirty and deliver you a sack of coal. You knew how much it cost, you knew how long it was going to last and you actually were were physically connected because each lump of coal you put on the fire you knew, as you weren't going to get back until the coalmen came. Gas came along with this big promise of well, it's cleaner yes, it is, it's cleaner than coal and it's cheaper. We will get it to you cheaper. That was the promise at the time. But of course it was all sat in the North Sea and then everybody else was sat in front of their coal fires. So there was a huge national effort went into connecting that energy source with the homes and now we have a very mature gas network in the UK that we've as I said earlier on that we've all benefited from for a long, long time.

Speaker 1: 37:49

But now we're at a point where we need to shift again time. But now we're at a point where we need to shift again. The science is telling us very clearly that what we're doing as human beings just existing, just me coming on the train to visit you today, to have this discussion, I've created some emissions. That's a good thing because it's allowed us to be here and communicate and do all of these things. But the science tells us now, right, understood, we need to move away from that. Now that's the mitigation piece that we talk about.

Speaker 1: 38:16

So we need to adapt to the changes in the climate and how that's driving different weather patterns that we're seeing Rain, heat, all of those different things failing crops, migration but that's a matter of us adapting to the change that is already in place. But we know the science now. So we need to mitigate against these damaging any further. And that's where your one-and-a-half degree, two-degree scenarios come in.

Speaker 1: 38:49

And that's always a difficult one for some people to concept because to you or I, half a degree is not going to make any difference at all. But if you're a migrating animal, if're coral, if you're a crop, if you're, that makes a huge difference and that's where these big swings are going to come in. So we need to. We know we've caused the problem. We need to create a society. I mean these are big subject areas, but you know we need to create a society that can deliver what everyone needs in a fair way, but in a lower carbon way, so that we're not damaging things what does it mean to you to be part of mitsubishi, specifically in the area and leading the the department that you are at the?

Speaker 1: 39:30

moment I? I certainly have and I don't mind using the word I certainly have a sense of pride in in being in the position that I'm in. Most definitely it does afford me the privilege of of these sort of opportunities of sitting in and talking to other experts, like yourself, but I'm very fortunate to work for a business such as mitsubishi electric. Who, to say, gets it really. They understand, they understand their position in all of this. We we have some of the products heat pumps, as I said, big ones, small ones, whatever they are that can make the sort of change that we need at the pace required. And I was thinking about this a little bit on the train on the way down, so I thought you might ask about that and our place in things.

Speaker 1: 40:17

I think, if you look at the span of things for me, just for me, at the age I am I'm 55 this year, so I started and a technical facing apprenticeship happened to be refrigeration engineering in the mid 80s you know we're now sat here in 2024, 2025. That that period of time, you know we've seen huge shifts in, in, in computing, in data volumes and acquisition, in what the science is telling us is good and bad. So we know what's bad. There's no discussion anymore about what's bad, is it? We've got to stop burning stuff, simple right.

Speaker 1: 40:57

40% of our electrical energy is coming from renewables. So far, that will only grow and grow and grow. So the next 100 years, 50 years, you know, other people will be taking that forward. So, yeah, I don't want to get too grand on this. I'm very fortunate. I work a very forward-looking company that is making some, some of the the solutions that are making a real difference today, and I'm just delighted to be trusted enough, I suppose, to come out and tell that story that we were talking about what's your hope, then, for the future?

Speaker 1: 41:32

yeah, well, if I I, we have two boys that one's just left university and he's now working as a veterinary, veterinary surgeon, hugely proud of him. He's put six years working and and he's out there and doing it. I mean he's doing an amazing job.

Speaker 2: 41:50

So, uh, yeah I've heard actually people say that to become a veterinary surgeon it's more complicated and difficult than to become.

Speaker 1: 41:56

Yeah, that's often the case. Yeah, if liam was here, he'd probably tell you that quite clearly as well, most definitely. But it's fascinating to hear him talk and how he, how he, how he applies things and what he's learned. And and I often say with him, he'll never work a day in his life. That lad, because he just enjoys. He's got a true passion for everything that he does and he wants to keep learning and make a positive difference and help and do those things.

Speaker 1: 42:26

And our younger son, couple of years younger, luke. He's doing mechanical engineering and he's doing his year in industry at the moment. And again, you know the world's his oyster. When you talk to him, you know quite challenging discussions they'll come out. Well, what about this? What about that? Does that work? Are you measuring our heat pump? Sufficiency is okay, those sort of questions over the dinner table now. So it keeps you intellectually stimulated and challenged and that can only be a good thing. Yeah, so I'm hugely proud of them and everything that their mother, sarah, has done for them to set them up for that. Yeah, so I'm very lucky in that regard.

Speaker 2: 43:09

And how does that feature then into terms of your, your work, how you've brought them up the, the ethos that you've had as a family? How does, how does that all mesh together?

Speaker 1: 43:19

yeah, I think we have a very good work ethic. I think my, my, my father, gave me that from an early age, which was, you know, no one's going to give you anything necessarily you have to get out and go and work for it, and so I would certainly credit him with that, with him giving a good work ethic, and I think my you know my wife's morals and and support and and sort of wisdom in things has just created a situation whereby we've got two. I would say this one night everybody says it about their own children, but you know we have two wonderful boys who you know, striking out in the world now and I think can do, can do amazing things. So just, uh, immensely proud of them. Yeah, good, how do you see your team?

Speaker 1: 44:08

Well, that we, our team, is two people in Mitsubishi Electric UK. Obviously, we're part of the wider Mitsubishi Electric. It's something north of 160,000 people. You know it's a big, big old machine that's out there. We're two people in the UK and we're two people, though, with a dedicated brief and ability to be able to concentrate purely on sustainability and, as I think I mentioned earlier, how, how we apply what the global business has has told the world that they're going to do, from a net zero target, wise, science-based targets, a global un solutions, etc. And then our uk marketplaces that I mentioned earlier, so I don't need to repeat that.

Speaker 1: 44:58

And the important element in all this is how do we take our colleagues on this journey as well, because there's a huge amount of knowledge in a business like ours and we need to tap into that and learn from their experience about what works and what doesn't work, where the waste is. You know, looking all those dark corners, about where we're wasting things and how we can do things more efficiently, and we're doing a really good job on that. My colleague, jack, is great. He's younger than me and very much fired up in that desire to want to make a positive difference out there in the world. And it's great having people like that around you because they, you know, and, as I've already said with our boys boys they keep you on your toes, they keep you honest and they keep, keep you push it pushed along.

Speaker 2: 45:58

And, yeah, I'm fortunate to be where I am talk to me about the efforts that you're going to to help and help the industry understand the embodied carbon that is within heat pumps and all of the other elements and components that go on or go with actually installing a heat pump in a property yes, of course.

Speaker 1: 46:24

So we as a business, historically, and continue to spend a lot of r&D effort, a lot of engineering expenditure, how do we make a product that is the most operationally efficient through its life? If we found just 1% energy efficiency saving in a heat pump, let's stick with domestic heat pumps. That 1% would be in play every hour of every day for 15 years. That it's in situ. So operational efficiency has always and will continue to be vitally important. But as we see operational loads dropping, buildings getting more thermally efficient, so we're building better, we're refurbishing our existing stock better. They are requiring less energy to keep themselves comfortable, profitable, pleasurable spaces to be in, so that operational phase as a whole of a building is shrinking. So that's to pick up on your question, darren is where things like embodied carbon come in. Pick up on your question, darren it's where things like embodied carbon come in, so that looks at the entire cradle to gate of you know. So all the materials that go into that product from all your supply chains into a factory environment is manufactured and then you've got a product sitting at the factory gates. Then you've got a cradle to at the factory gates, then you've got a cradle-to-grave approach, which is obviously it's not doing a lot sitting at the factory gates. It is delivered around the world, it's installed, it's operated through its life. At the end of its life, the materials are recovered. So that's cradle-to-grave. That's where your embodied carbon comes in. So how do we calculate all of the different carbon impacts for the different materials and processes in that finished thing that is a heat pump? Now we worked with sibsy chartered institute building services engineers and the their consultants at the time, because a lot of work had been done on the materials for a building the bricks, the facades, the, even paint, the plasterboard, all of those sort of things but a lot less to none had been done on the mechanical services to understand what are the impacts of those, what's good, what's not so good when it comes to embodied carbon. So we were interested in that and more than happy to work with them and and we shared some of our products. We worked with our factories who initially were nervous of this approach the way I explain it is it's like asking them to share their ingredients list with the world and we worked with our factories to get them to a comfort level whereby why this data was would be a good thing for everybody. And then sibsy created a document called technical memorandum 65, tm65, and that created a framework to be able to calculate embodied carbon for equipment like ours air conditioners, heat pumps, pumps, whatever it is. So we were delighted to work with them in the creation of that. We have since that point, created hundreds of individual data sets for our products which are available to anybody. They can go onto our digital library, download them and look and see.

Speaker 1: 49:55

Well, where are the impacts on a? Again, let's stick with a heat pump. Is it the material in the heat pump? Is it the, as we're often asked, is it the shipping of it? Well, if you've made it in Japan, that's terrible, isn't it? Well, actually, it's not until you crunch the data that you realize that Actually Terrible, isn't it? Well, actually, it's not until you crunch the data that you realize that Actually, the transporting of something is really a very small element of the whole. Of course that you see that the refrigerant that explained earlier, a vapor compression cycle.

Speaker 1: 50:40

We need a refrigerant in the system.

Speaker 1: 50:43

The refrigerant is a substantial part of the embodied carbon, because you have to assume that some of the refrigerant will leak.

Speaker 1: 50:51

Now, that isn't the case with a hermetically sealed system like that.

Speaker 1: 50:57

But the, the, the method, says you have to calculate some leakage.

Speaker 1: 51:04

So the refrigerant that you use has has quite an impact and we wanted to be honest with that.

Speaker 1: 51:10

So it could have been just a number on the on the data sheet that we supply.

Speaker 1: 51:16

But we we felt that wasn't clear enough for consumers, other engineers who were making those decisions. So we show our embodied carbon with all the materials and all the logistics and we show on the on the graph at the front theant separately so that anyone can make that comparison and what that teaches us. Then it's a long way to get around. What that teaches us is then, as a business, we can understand well when we're creating a new product for the market, such as our latest. Ecodan heat pump uses R290 as a refrigerant that has many of the characteristics of its previous refrigerant but a far lower what's called global warming potential. So if it ever did leak, so the embodied element of that machine drops quite drastically. And it's really through us doing that sort of that pausing, I suppose, taking the time to really analyze be forensic about a product that allows you to make those sort of engineering decisions and go out to the market with a solution that we feels the right one seems like two things came out of that process.

Speaker 2: 52:30

One is you understood what the embodied carbon was, um. And then the second thing is, by understanding what the embodied carbon was that enabled you to make changes, to improve exactly that.

Speaker 1: 52:43

Yeah, I don't get me wrong, darren, I don't think we're at a position yet because we're still early in this, in this journey, and lots of other manufacturers are doing their work on understanding where their impacts are. I don't think we're at a stage yet where a direct comparison is being or could even be made product A from us, product B from somebody else but as those data sets build, that will certainly happen From us purely as a company innovating and creating the next generation of products. It's really useful for us. Yeah, because another thing that we do is we we have a really good look at what does it mean when that, when this heat pump is finally at the very end of its life, it should be seen as a repository of some materials X amount of kilos of copper, aluminium, steel sitting in that box. So we don't want to just discard that, we want to make sure those materials are fully recovered and we invest quite heavily.

Speaker 1: 53:52

I've been fortunately enough years quite a few years ago now to see this process in japan whereby we have a process called hyper cycle systems that looks at the dismantling, end of life stage of a piece of equipment like ours and how do we get as higher recovery rate as we possibly can for those materials.

Speaker 1: 54:14

We then pass those materials to a second system called green cycle systems, which works on their purity and the quality of the materials, and then we we're happy enough for those materials to come back into our supply chain to make the next piece of kit. But the the point I'm taking a long while to get to is having those facilities in our in our ecosystem, if you like allows the engineers who are creating tomorrow's you know the new piece of equipment to really understand what it actually means, because one day it'll be an old piece of equipment. So those engineers get seconded and they go off to the recycling plant and they learn. Well, oh yeah, I was going to connect this bit to that bit, but that's gonna. I can see now that that's really awkward when it comes to end of life. So it is creating a a true whole life cycle discussion across our engineers and we offer a recycling system within the UK and we take that very seriously and I know it's well received by the contractors here.

Speaker 2: 55:24

Martin, I think we're now at a point where we can go to the demolition zone. Okay, are you ready?

Speaker 1: 55:30

I think I'm ready, as I'll ever be.

Speaker 2: 55:31

Let's do it. Are you ready? I think I'm ready, as I'll ever be. Let's do it. Okay, we are back here in the demolition zone. Martin, you have created a series of low-level items, low-level things, but they're, but they're. You position them in a, in a circle. At least in my eyes, anyway, it looks like that's the case.

Speaker 1: 55:50

Yeah, your eyes are not deceiving you. Yeah, I don't think. Yeah, don't concentrate on the low rise, high rise thing. But what I'm trying to pick up on here because I think we only briefly talked about it in our in our discussion is the need for collaboration.

Speaker 1: 56:07

No, on this journey to net zero, as I explained, destination without a map we have our part to play in this. We're manufacturers. We've got to keep innovating, creating those products that deliver what the market requires and what the science tells us is required. And that's our place in this, I think, is to go away, carry on investing and innovating, but you but that's one part of it we're not the consultant, we're not the architect, we're not the contractor vitally the contractor who's actually going to lay their hands on this piece of equipment, install it properly, maintain it properly and, at the end of its life, make sure it's handled properly and we get all those materials back into the supply chain.

Speaker 1: 56:52

So what I've tried to represent is is that collaborative approach, is the fact that we're all part of a, of a, of a ecosystem I think is the word I'm looking for whereby we all have our part to play with that, that analogy I said earlier about the, the destination without a map, play our full part in this transformation journey that we're on, and my optimism levels remain high really in that regard, because I do have it, in the position. I'm in some really optimistic, open-ended discussions with contracting big building building firms, big end users that say, look, martin, we've made our pledge, you've made your pledge, how are we going to make this work now? And you know some real thought-provoking stuff. So, uh, I've tried to represent that in in the blocks that you gave me.

Speaker 2: 57:50

Love it that's great's great. So, to sum up, I think what I'm taking away from this is that the myth would be that we cannot do it on our own Absolutely. We are not an island. I mean physically, the UK is an island. Yeah, metaphorically, yeah, but we are not an island. We can't do it on our own. The task in front of us means that we need to come together. So the myth that you're busting is we can't do it on our own absolutely we can't do our.

Speaker 1: 58:17

One of those will be government. You know government, they're the only ones who can pull certain levers. Manufacturers, we know our place, keep innovating, keep investing, keep bringing those solutions to market, but they've got to be designed, applied properly and, as I say for the contractor side of things, vital, installed properly, maintained properly. So, yeah, let's work together and rise to the challenge, and, because there's a lot of opportunity out there for us as well, because we need to work together.

Speaker 1: 58:49

Martin, let's just destroy the myth yeah, get rid of it now, however you want, right the myth is gone.

Speaker 2: 58:55

There you go. Nice, that's fantastic, thank you, thank you, no, thank you. Just as we're, as we're speaking there, I'm wondering who is it that you collaborate well with? Who do mitsubishi collaborate well with?

Speaker 1: 59:08

well, I think we've got a good history and continue to forge, you know, really worthwhile long-term relationships with end users, whether they be retailers, hotel chains, whoever they are end users and those in that supply chain who are vital to building them, designing and installing. So I think we've got a very good history in forging collaborative relationships that are long-term and hopefully beneficial to both of us, and this is a tricky question.

Speaker 2: 59:44

We may delete this question, but it's a tricky question. Who is it that you want to collaborate with, but for some reason it's just not working, or you can't find out why it's not working. Who do you want to collaborate with, but for some reason it's just not working? Or you can't find out why it's not working. Who do you want to collaborate with?

Speaker 1: 59:58

Yeah, that is a tricky one, that isn't it, I think? Well, you know, let's go straight for the top Government. You know we're not a business that's into direct lobbying, and I don't ever see that changing. We work with some really good trade bodies that are out there Heat Pump Association, beezer, beamer, people like that whereby we put what we feel is our knowledge and expertise into that, into those environments, and whereby then that is a place whereby the politicians can can come and seek, you know, some good consensus. And I've always said we've always, in my time there, we've always remained pragmatic. So if, if, something won't work or it's really just wrong, we'll say so. There's no point saying any other for some tiny bit of short-term gain or one project. You know we've got to be pragmatic. As my model hopefully demonstrated, we haven't got all the answers, so we've got to seek useful collaborations on this journey and, as say, well, I remain optimistic, I'm sure we can get there and then what would you say to somebody that's listening that you really want to collaborate more with?

Speaker 2: 1:01:26

what would you want them to know? What would you want them to do? How would you want them to approach you?

Speaker 1: 1:01:32

well, I mean, I mean get in touch.

Speaker 1: 1:01:33

I mean you will find us being a company and a set of people within that company that are open to new ideas and a new hopefully.

Speaker 1: 1:01:44

You know different ways of looking at things. I find myself in those positions, in the position I'm in, talking with MPs current and past MPs and members of the Lords and their advisors and technical groups, and you know, not everybody, of course, not everybody, but the vast majority of the time, people are set to receive, they want to learn and they want to understand what is the right thing to do. How do we make this transition in a fair and equitable way for everybody and make these positive changes so that you were kind enough to ask me about my family so that my family, your family, has got a sustainable planet to live on off into the future. I know that's a big, lofty goal at the end, but you know, collaborate, share, and I think I, I know I don't think that anybody who makes an approach to us in that regard, they tend to get a positive response. We can at least have that discussion, can't we?

Speaker 2: 1:02:47

that's not costing us anything and we might learn something martin, it's been a pleasure to catch up with you, appreciate you coming in and sharing your wisdom, your perspective, but I just want to give you the opportunity just to give any last thoughts as we end the podcast. Is there anything that's on your mind that you want to disseminate or give as a as a passing thought to the listeners?

Speaker 1: 1:03:09

well, from a personal perspective, I think we we've got to be very careful with with the messaging that we give out to wider society and other countries and other territories that are going to have to go through this change as well. When you listen to the news, like I did this morning, and it it talks about oh, we can't quite spend that much, we'll spend this much, we're going to say yes to more oil and gas. You know, the language we use is vital. People aren't daft. They understand. They've got their own challenges working, paying the bills, raising their families, doing all the things that we all have to do but they're not daft out there. So let's be careful in our language and let's be collaborative and long-term in our thinking and again, I think we can do this. Pleasure Martin, thank you very much, thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:04:11

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