Martin Townsend : 0:00

So my job title is director of the Center of Excellence for Sustainability at BSI.

Darren Evans: 0:04

You don't have that on the door, do you?

Martin Townsend : 0:05

I don't have that on the door, we have been involved in the pilots with driverless vehicles, and that, in its own right, was quite fascinating in terms of how do you create standards which allow vehicles to talk to each other.

Darren Evans: 0:17

We're getting better at using a range of different standards within the industry, but what we haven't done what mark you see yourself or you want to leave on either the industry, on your community or on the world Spoke for 30, 40 minutes and somebody came up to me after and said I saw you five years ago.

Martin Townsend : 0:34

And you said saying then, which has changed my life? I think, as leaders, it is about how you create the right culture to allow people to grow. It really, really doesn't matter where you are in the industry, it doesn't matter what role you play, it doesn't matter if you're a supplier, it doesn't matter if you're an architect, a client, whatever role you play, everybody has the opportunity to make a difference.

Darren Evans: 0:57

Hello and welcome to our next episode on the Thriving Construction podcast. Today I am really grateful to be with Martin Townsend. Martin, great to have you here.

Martin Townsend : 1:08

Thank you. It's great to be here as well, and what a great series of conversations you're having.

Darren Evans: 1:12

Martin, you at the moment have got a really unique position in a really, really fascinating company doing some fantastic things. Just for those people that are listening and watching, can you just break down what it is you do? Yeah?

Martin Townsend : 1:25

I suppose the easy answer is to start with my job title. But if I gave you my job title it wouldn't really give you all that you need to the know. So my job title is Director of the Centre of Excellence for Sustainability at BSI. That's a mouthful, that is a mouthful.

Darren Evans: 1:39

You don't have that on the door, do you? I don't have that on the door.

Martin Townsend : 1:42

But I suppose, the way I often look at it, this is about nurturing our clients, supporting our clients, understanding the challenges of the future and actually kind of almost being a head gardener in terms of working with our clients to really grow relationships and to really support them in terms of what they need to do for the future.

Darren Evans: 2:00

So, just for those people that may be familiar with BSI and the link with construction, can you give me an example of the types of standards that you will look at?

Martin Townsend : 2:08

This is where you kind of like, if you ask any BSI person about standards, they will start to quote numbers at you. Ok, ok, so you know we can look at things like circle economy. Yep, so we've got standards. In fact, we wrote the very first standard on circle economy. There are standards around BIM. There are standards around water management. There are standards around carbon management. So we're doing a lot of work around carbon. One of the standards which is probably most widely used 14,001 started in BSI before it came in ISO standard. So there are lots of different standards that touch the industry, but we never stand still. So we're writing a standard at the moment on low carbon concrete. We're doing more work around circularity. We are trying to understand and help the industry about what does water efficient design look like? It's a big emerging issue, I'm sure. Yeah, again, we'll probably talk about that. So it's about providing the management systems as well as the thematics around how companies can improve, be it at a individual component level, you know, like concrete or some of the components that go into buildings, or actually about the bigger issue as well, in terms of how do we really drive change around, sort of BIM or some construction practices. So it's a wide agenda.

Martin Townsend : 3:21

My agenda does go slightly wider than construction as well. So if I think about conversations I'm having at the moment, we're talking about the future of mobility, which does impact on construction. So if we start to think about what might happen in the future, which rival is vehicles? 40% of London is correlated. If you can imagine how the urban landscape might look like if you start to kind of take away the dependency on the vehicle, on the car, that really changes it completely. And then, in that same conversation about mobility, we're talking about vertical takeoff and landing. How does that change the urban landscape in terms of? You know, you might have postrooms on the roofs of buildings, not in the basements, because your deliveries are being landed onto the roof of the building.

Darren Evans: 4:07

So it's interesting, as you're talking about the way that post comes in and that may come in on the roof. I was reading something not too long ago with reference to Amazon and how Amazon as an organisation are now looking at the next phase of that aerial delivery, if that's the right phrase to use within the UK. Are you involved in that as well?

Martin Townsend : 4:24

We're involved in lots of things. I'm not sure we're involved in that one. We have been involved in the pilots with rivaled vehicles, and that in itself was quite fascinating in terms of how do you create standards which allow vehicles to talk to each other, to talk to street furniture, to collect the right data in terms of congestion in an urban area. How do you make sure those standards are open but safe? That becomes a big issue, doesn't it? Because if we look at some of the threats of the future, it will be around security and cybersecurity, and you know, our buildings are highly resilient spaces sometimes, but they can be fragile as well with increased technology. Before we started this conversation, we were talking about AI. You know what does that mean for our urban environment in terms of how that technology might completely change the design of it, the use of it, the management of it. So there's some big topics which I think are both worrying people and exciting people in equal measure.

Darren Evans: 5:22

I think the area that you touched on with reference to security is definitely a yeah is always a concern, right, yeah, if I have all of these different things that are automated and they're connected to other things that are important in my life as well, how can I be sure that someone's not going to hack into that and turn my life upside down? So it becomes really really quite bad.

Martin Townsend : 5:42

It is, and I think there are moments probably in our everyday life. So, for instance, recently when my wife I went down, God was quite lost at home. In the sense of what I do, I'm very dependent on my connectivity you lost.

Darren Evans: 5:56

To be frustrated, you must have been frustrated, I. There must have been rage in there. You know Wi-Fi rage.

Martin Townsend : 6:03

But it's those moments and I think the pandemic was the same, wasn't it when it just reminds us about the values of us as individuals and what are important and how sometimes we do get sucked into complicated lives where actually some of the things which are more important in terms of happiness and sort of taking time to educate yourself and, to you know, have some quiet moments to think about what you need to do and how you can inspire your industry or inspire your colleagues.

Martin Townsend : 6:36

Sometimes just needs a moment, disconnected from the wide world or from the internet.

Darren Evans: 6:42

What you're doing. It sounds so multifaceted, yeah, and it sounds like not only you're dealing with the current, but you're also dealing with the future. Yeah, and there are even see the distant future.

Martin Townsend : 6:52

Yeah, and it's. It is interesting, isn't it? Because I think, when we start to look at different sectors, they're all moving in different spaces and they're all moving in different ways, but they are incredibly interconnected and what we're seeing more and more is technology jumps between sectors. So I think if we start to look at kind of Tesla and the batteries that they have created, those now sit in some of our domestic properties. So there are technology jumps that will move from sector to sector. I remember when I was at BRE, there was a lot of space technology in terms of face change, materials that came from the space program that is now in buildings, and what we've got to be very open-minded to is the disruptive force of technology. So you know not saying well, this is the construction industry and these are the boundaries of the industry. Actually, the flow of knowledge, the flow of best practice, the flow of technology, the innovation, should be allowed to flow where it can best support change.

Darren Evans: 7:55

You mentioned that you used to work at the BRE. Yes, so for those that maybe you're unfamiliar with the BRE, can you just briefly talk about that and also your journey of getting there?

Martin Townsend : 8:07

I love to give you the impression that it is very mapped and very conceived. I would say it's more organic. Ok, this is your journey, yonabat, of how you are where you are Exactly. Yeah, so it was interesting this morning when I was coming here, I started my working career just down the road. I started when I started working. I worked for Tarmac and I worked in materials design and testing and some of our depots were down the road for sort of the expansion sort of into East London.

Martin Townsend : 8:40

And it's really interesting how life was very simple back then Testing materials, understanding their performance, advising in terms of their use, in terms of concrete and construction materials, etc. Really simple life. And I think sometimes you forget how much the world has changed. It's only when you step back and you just remind yourself the urban form, the materials side of it, even some of the health and safety parameters. But from actually working in testing I then sort of did more civil engineering based work. I then moved from there into the water companies, so I worked with a lot of water companies and then moved into the environment agency. So I did a lot of policy work which was fascinating in terms of thinking about sort of environmental policy, which I suppose is where my sustainability roots really started to flourish.

Martin Townsend : 9:38

I then went to work for DEFRA, working on construction within DEFRA At a time when DEFRA was just really starting to write the UK strategy around sustainability. So really fascinating time in terms of that as an opportunity to influence also things like the new waste strategy is being written at the time. And then from there back to the environment agency and from there went to BRE. But I think the thing which is common to all of those sort of steps on my journey I have worked with some amazing people like yourself, where it isn't just about you as an individual, it is about the people that you work with that inspire you, because you've got to be quite humbled in life, because everybody has something to contribute to, especially around the built environment, because it is a complicated space. We are talking about people and the environment you're placing them in and it has so many dependencies in terms of the energy you consume, the health environment you might create, the urban spaces and access to wider spaces you create.

Martin Townsend : 10:55

And I think BRE was really quite an important part in my journey because it was about sort of being an environment that was very research based but was very, very rich with some absolutely amazing people. Everybody I used to speak to on a daily basis within the canteen or in the office would have some new ideas, new stories to tell and some of the things like the Innovation Park was a really good demonstration at the time of how you brought some of that to life. So that part of my life was really good. And then, probably more importantly, bringing BREM from just being a UK based standard to being a truly international one, and that was quite, quite eye-opening at the time because you can say well, actually it's a relatively simple step to take a single standard to become an international standard.

Martin Townsend : 11:55

But then you start to realize the importance of words and the importance of culture, the importance of materials, the importance of climate. So, as you start to think about, what does a building mean in the Mediterranean, what does a building mean within Scandinavia, for instance? It's a building, yet the culture, the climate, the materials, the practices are very, very different because you've got a different temperature range. People use the spaces between buildings in warmer climates very differently. They will use them as spaces to gather, to socialize, whereas in colder climates, basically that's not the practice.

Martin Townsend : 12:37

So you kind of you really have to reset and rethink how you are driving change in a really constructive way which is better than current practice. And that is really quite a sensitive thing to do, because you don't want people to aim for the certificate as the outcome. You want them to aim for a better building, a better community as the outcome. And I think one thing that's really fascinating me at the moment is how do we, as professionals, truly measure the impact of what we're doing in the activities we are following? Because I think we get fascinated by single metrics like carbon savings or net zero, but what does it mean from a societal perspective, what does it mean from an innovation perspective? And how do you measure progress? And how do you measure that positive progress so you can capture it or you can accelerate it?

Darren Evans: 13:40

That's a really good point there. So when you were at the BRE so we take BREEM as an example and you were there, I think, around the time where, if not BREEM was new, was it not created under? The time when you were at the BRE. And then how do you measure, or you think you know from my time at the BRE, how do I know or how do the BRE know that BREEM has done its job, whatever that is, or made it better, whatever it?

Martin Townsend : 14:09

is yeah. So there was a moment and I suppose in all of our professional careers, I remember the moment where we were sitting down and going OK, so we do new construction. Should we look at existing buildings? Should we look at communities? What is the life cycle of buildings? Because we are having a conversation about internationalising BREEM, but actually what we're talking about is internationalising BREEM for new construction. Should we think about in use communities, refurbishment? What are the stages that building goes through and what's the role that best practice plays within that kind of system? I suppose that ecosystem of change.

Martin Townsend : 14:54

But you're right, we did a lot of work with, I think, maastricht universities and other academics about what's the true impact of what BREEM has done and it has transformed and I think some really good examples were some of the work we did around sort of domestic buildings and the code for sustainable homes, because that was very well researched, I suppose, in the sense that there was the period when the code was created.

Martin Townsend : 15:24

There was the period then in 2014, I think it was when no, it was later than that when they decided to get rid of the code and actually the industry kicked back to say, actually, the reason this really worked for us was the fact that it gave us certainty.

Martin Townsend : 15:42

It gave us not just what good looks like, there was a kind of a clear understanding between what current performance is, what future performance is. It gives us a procurement specification language. I suppose, to say I need a code level three home or code level four home, and I think the same with BREEM, which it starts becoming narrative, doesn't it? And when you start to talk to assessors around how it's used, and some of the assessors, like yourself and others out there, are really inspiring because the level of detail they go to with the team to get the right outcomes is impressive, because it's the detail that matters in a building. If you don't think about the energy modelling, if you don't think about the data you're collecting to ensure that building is truly going to perform, then I think we're letting the client down.

Darren Evans: 16:37

It's really interesting the way that you speak about the standard and how that then connects to meaning, and then, if you have the two together, then you see this thing which we call improvement, and it seems as though from what you're saying is that by having the code for sustainable home and saying that I want code level three, or I want a BREEM excellent or I want an ISO, fill in the blank, that there's a common understanding of what that actually means in terms of level of expectation, in terms of level of outcome, where it seems as though at the moment we've not quite got that clarity with words like sustainable buildings or net zero or even embodied carbon, in terms of what is the standard, what does good look like and how do I know that my version of good is not any different to someone else's version of good?

Martin Townsend : 17:31

I knew you were going to ask really good questions today If I came here I thought just double down on the coffee, because you will be asking really good questions. And I think that's the number of the issue here that we're getting better at using a range of different standards within the industry, but what we haven't done is truly created. If I use another analogy, we haven't truly created a circular process. We've got a linear process where we convene, we write standards, we gather best practice, we place those standards into the market. I think with the greater use of technology and data within the industry, there is an opportunity to make this more circular so that as we go out and we assess, in whatever standard it might be, the data we collect from an audit process is in a digital form, which can actually give us a much more informed view of how that process is working.

Martin Townsend : 18:37

And I often describe it to my colleagues at BSI that my ambition, my vision, is to have a seat at the table as standards are reviewed, which is purely about the data of true performance. So how are people actually using that standard? What does it mean in reality? What is that data telling us about how it's being applied? And actually are we pushing people hard enough? Are we pushing them too hard so we can actually really see almost in real time true performance and actually to gain pace in the industry. We do need to make sure we have speed. It's about making sure we've got more purpose, and the more purpose is about greater speed to change the industry and I think as we collect data we can make that happen quicker. But the moment we are very linear in the way that process works. We need to actually feed that data back to inform individuals, but also to inform standards of the future.

Darren Evans: 19:40

It's really interesting that you talk about. The moment is linear and what we're after is something that builds on something else, which brings us round, and I'm making connections now of you know your career path and how it seems to be more pointing towards that.

Darren Evans: 19:59

But there's a development and a growth in that period and I really do see that not just in people and how people naturally develop and grow, but also within this industry and it's great to see people like you that are involved in that. But in being involved in that, there's an acceptance and almost a celebration of the fact that it's not linear. In terms that it shouldn't be linear, progress really isn't linear. We want to be over here, but actually over here is not as clear as we want it to be, so maybe we kind of go up and down a little bit. Ultimately, what we're trying to do is just progressively improve and get better and better.

Martin Townsend : 20:39

The one thing I've learned recently, more than anything else, is the need to experiment. You know, I think, if I look back at my career, kind of like, this is the way we do it. You know, we've always done it this way you know, crack on with it, martin, but more recently, I'm not sure it's age or it's width or it's wisdom, what?

Darren Evans: 21:01

are your combinations?

Martin Townsend : 21:02

Combination yeah, exactly Of course.

Darren Evans: 21:04

Obviously you have all known you didn't when you were younger Martin, but you do know.

Martin Townsend : 21:10

Is the needs to experiment. If we try it this way, what will happen? It didn't kind of work, that's okay. And actually you know, if you construct your experiments in whatever you're doing in the right way, you can really drive change in a much more in a quicker way, I suppose. But that hunger to say and I remember going back in my career, we laid the first porous asphalt on a motorway.

Martin Townsend : 21:39

This is years and years ago. It really didn't go well, I think it was down just for a few months, but it was yeah, and that didn't work, guys, but it was a really good experiment and I kind of forgot about that. That if you're trying to make change happen, sometimes you have to be courageous and you have to take risks. But actually if you get it right, those risks really do benefit. But you need to control them now to make sure that in the corporate environment you're working, that you're kind of getting people to buy in, to get them to sign up to what change might look like, and here's the organization you're working for, the change agent that will make something happen.

Darren Evans: 22:18

So when you say that I hear the word play, yeah, and when you think of play, that's where things are discovered, right, when we're children I'm sure you would, similar to me, go out, get into mischief, yeah, and you guys, oh, that didn't go right. I've learned from that one.

Darren Evans: 22:37

Yes, and other times you like oh, that went really well. I didn't think I'd be able to do that, but I actually done it. Yeah, let me see if I can build on it. Yeah, and so how does that translate for you then, with your team and encouraging that sense of exploration, play, development, growth, because there's quite a few people that are under your guidance.

Martin Townsend : 22:57

So we do do a lot of innovation work, which I think is is that play space, isn't it? How do we ensure that we're innovating, supporting change, learning from those experiences, trying to guess what might come next? And that is about working with all different people across the industry, isn't it? Because it isn't just about your individual view, you know. It is about trying to convene that ecosystem around you to say right, you know, there's a problem over here. How do we innovate to try and solve that problem and how do we do that in a way which is an acceptable risk and acceptable challenge? So I think the role innovation has is incredibly important.

Darren Evans: 23:47

And so I've got someone in the back of my mind now that's maybe a listener saying yes, but all this play. It leads to recklessness, which is wasted money and lost jobs, and this, that and the other. What would you say to that voice that's like whoa, pull up, let's be sensible here. Play sounds irresponsible.

Martin Townsend : 24:06

It sounds chaotic, I think and this is where, kind of like when I've worked with people in the industry every single project has an opportunity. Every single project doesn't matter how mundane it might feel, there is a space to do something better than average. It might not end up with an outstanding building, it might not end up with sort of in a winning awards. Every single building has an opportunity. Every single community, every single component that is designed within the building has an opportunity to improve. And it's about your risk appetite. And if you want to make change happen, you don't have to make it big change. You can just take a single element of a building or a single thematic of a building and say well, what could I do better and actually do it in a way which is quite controlled.

Martin Townsend : 25:03

But the bit that worries me at the moment is, as we become, as the margins become tighter within industry, as risk appetite gets more controlled, people take less chances and does that have the risk of slowing the industry down to improve. So I suppose my call to everybody that takes a moment to listen to this podcast is you have the opportunity to take all of your professional learning, be it from university or from previous projects, and in everything you do you could do something which is better today than it was yesterday. That's up to you. But if you do do that, that's kind of A inspires other people. But also it should give you that kind of professional pride that you've taken the knowledge you've got from another project or what you learned at university and you've done something with it. And if it doesn't work, that's okay. You know, be honest about it, be open about it, and then pick yourself up and just go well, what went wrong and what do I need to do differently next time? So fantastic invitation.

Darren Evans: 26:16

Who inspires you, Martin?

Martin Townsend : 26:20

Do you know what I was thinking about this? There are so many people, so many people, and it goes back to saying I said earlier I have been unbelievably privileged to work with some amazing people and what is fascinating is that when I reflect on the people who've inspired me, sometimes they are the most unlikely people.

Darren Evans: 26:47

So who like, who give me an example. Got some names. I probably don't know them, but let's start name dropping.

Martin Townsend : 26:52

Oh, name dropping is that's always a difficult one, isn't it? So when I worked at BRE, I did a lot of work with the Green Building Councils and all of them are very different because they're all working in different countries, all trying to achieve different things, but all of them all their CEOs were driven, were passionate, were change agents. So the work that Paul King did at the time at UKGBC I thought was inspirational because he had a vision and he basically started the UKGBC. If I look at what it is today, it is all because of what Paul did. If I think about some of the stuff that was and that is been done in America USGBC doing some great stuff in terms of becomes a language that everybody now talks about.

Martin Townsend : 27:52

If I think about some of the architects that basically have designed some of those buildings inspiration as well. Especially those architects like Bill Dunster who, if you go back to BEDZET I forgot when that was built, but it was built in early 2000 and it was zero energy development back at that time and we are still wrestling with ourselves to say, well, what does net zero, what does good look like? And you go and speak to Bill. I think he's now kind of following a more academic route. He cracked it 20 odd years ago and he freely admits and it comes back to something we talked about in terms of values freely admits that he didn't get it all right. You know, he had a sewage tree and work on there to kind of make itself contained as well, but he made some amazing kind of breakthroughs which the industry then decided, for whatever reason, to ignore. So when you get these leaders in terms of change, some of them are inspirational, but they also become frustrated because they know some of the answers and they just go come on, guys.

Darren Evans: 29:07

I think that's the path of a leader, though right Is to be frustrated.

Martin Townsend : 29:11

Yeah, yeah, so I don't.

Darren Evans: 29:15

I'm just gonna say, really call it as it is. Sound really unsympathetic. If you're a leader, you're gonna feel frustration.

Martin Townsend : 29:21

I think you're right. I think you're right.

Darren Evans: 29:23

I don't know of a leader unless you do. That has never been frustrated by the thing that they're trying to lead in.

Martin Townsend : 29:30

But I think that's an important value for your listeners, isn't it? There will be some people out there who might seem to be frustrated or angry. Pause and ask them why? Because I remember many great conversations with Bill about all sorts of design that he had done around domestic commercial buildings, his vision of the future in terms of electrification, you know, cars, bikes, et cetera, et cetera, and there was immense frustration in terms of why people don't get this. So you had to kind of pause and say, well, come on, bill, unpick this, explain to me and the greatest cups of coffee I ever had when we were sitting down with him in the Bari canteen trying to understand what his vision was in a measured, managed way, and going, yeah, I understand it now. Because that kind of frustration sometimes can be a negative force. You've got to really get underneath the skin to turn it into a positive force, haven't you?

Darren Evans: 30:38

And find your people as well. Yeah, you know the impact that he's had on you has been there and that will ripple out and continue, and I know that you inspire other people on. I know you feel frustrated with different things and other things. And so that ripple effect goes on and on, and one of the things. I'm wondering is going back to the childhood.

Martin Townsend : 31:01

Yes.

Darren Evans: 31:01

What was your source of inspiration or who inspired you back then? Because they say you know lots of psychologists and other people will say that we are definitely imprinted and impacted by the things that happen to us as children and I'm wondering you know what was a source of inspiration for?

Martin Townsend : 31:19

you. It's fascinating question, isn't it? You know, great, stable home environment, I think was really positive for me, right. But if I think about you know, when I was growing up, my next door neighbor was an engineer and would kind of work with me to build go-karts in the garden shed we built these little balloons that when they got to a certain height would drop little parachutes because of the change in air pressure. And I think kind of, as you challenge me as I think back some of those kind of sort of engineering moments right when you were kind of like actually all you really wanted was the go-kart. You weren't really thinking about the construction of the go-kart, it's just about how fast could you go. But when you think back, there's some massive lessons there in terms of life skills, understanding engineering, you know how things are made and actually you know, I think I used to get told off a lot, by my mum in particular, about taking things apart to understand how they worked. Is that because you couldn't put them back together?

Martin Townsend : 32:28

afterwards, or you lost the bits, take them next door and go. You know, gordon, can you help me put this back together again, because I've taken two pieces?

Darren Evans: 32:34

I've got no idea.

Martin Townsend : 32:37

But it's that inquisitive, isn't it? It's, I think we all have to be quite inquisitive and there are negative sides to being inquisitive, you know. I think I just demonstrated them that.

Martin Townsend : 32:50

I used to take things to pieces and couldn't put them back together again. But as you get older, that inquisitive behaviour actually kind of is quite positive, because it then starts to make you challenge some of the current practices and say, well, could we do better? And I find myself doing this in lots of online meetings is people will put down, you know we need to do this, and I can hear myself so frequently saying, okay, is there a better way of doing this? Or why are we doing this? So I think being that inquisitive younger person in today's kind of current sort of environment is not a bad thing. You do need to manage it. So inquisitive behaviour doesn't become a negative force. It just becomes a way of understanding before you then make decisions.

Darren Evans: 33:48

I love that. It's almost like the sowing the seeds that are going to grow later on. That's the picture I've got in my mind. You know, being inquisitive, taking things apart, really at that time I'm sure drove your mum absolutely mad and I'm sure she chewed your dad's ear off. I'm sure she did, she chewed your ear off but really, what that's led to is where you are today is making a significant impact. Yeah, that is impacting people that are outside of your family, that are outside of your community and that are outside of your county or your country. You understand, yeah, and so I think that sometimes we can just kind of reframe these. What maybe I suggested as failures or actually is maybe kind of sowing seeds that will grow into something far better at a later point. But we just need to allow time to march on and allow that inquisitiveness to develop so that where you are at the moment, if that would have been stifled and stamped out by your mum, you wouldn't be able to have the impact that you are now, because she would have crushed it.

Martin Townsend : 34:59

Yeah, but this is where I think it's really important to your listeners to kind of understand the environment you're working in. Because if you're working in a really good environment that supports you to be inquisitive, to support you to ask questions, then you will grow. If you're in an environment that, basically, is restricting that or we don't do that here, you just need to kind of crack on with what I've asked you to do and we do need to make sure that as we develop ourselves, that we have those right environments. So your question about who inspired you every one of your listeners should be able to take a moment to ask themselves who in my current working environment is inspiring me, or who within my industry is inspiring me? Because we need those kind of people to kind of share knowledge, to give people confidence, make people courageous, to go well.

Martin Townsend : 35:56

Actually, maybe I could do something on my next project, which is a little bit different. You know it's in the boundaries of the design brief. Why don't I try something? And so I think we've got to be careful that we don't lose our professional skills that we have. We have the right culture where we work to grow and to develop new skills and we foster those in the right way. So you're right. Good challenge.

Darren Evans: 36:22

I'm wondering, martin, what mark you see yourself or you want to leave on either the industry, on your community or on the world.

Martin Townsend : 36:33

That is a really challenging question, isn't it? Is this kind of hope, I suppose, and I don't think, you know, we as professionals or we as individuals, truly appreciate the impact we have. And it only really came to my mind only a few years ago, maybe five years ago, when I was speaking at a conference and I stood down off the stage and, as you all do, you go, let's go and get a coffee and just kind of like regroup, having just kind of like spoke for 30, 40 minutes, and somebody came up to me after and said I saw you five years ago. And you said, saying then, which has changed my life? And I went whoa, you don't realise sometimes, when you say words on the stage, what that real ripple effect is? And I think what we have to be careful about sometimes as professionals, as people that want to push the industry forward, we've got to be really careful and cautious about what we say, because we need to inspire, we need to share best practice, we need to kind of have a view on the future, but we've got to make sure that, as we share those views and those ideas that how they might land with individuals. So it is about, I hope, that in things that I've said, in things that I will still say into the future.

Martin Townsend : 38:01

I suppose that somebody will take some of those and do something absolutely incredible in terms of something in the real environment, because it is about growing, isn't it? It is about what I say, or what you say, or what any of your other kind of sort of your guests say is the answer. It's the starting point for an answer, and actually it's about how do your listeners take those ideas, grow them, cultivate them, adapt them for their own circumstances, their own needs. So it might be well, what comes beyond net zero? How do we think about regenerative behaviour? What is the true meaning of circularity in the built environment? How do we think about water neutrality? As we start to think about community development, how do you take some of those concepts and build on them and actually build them into the next developments and grow them even further? So you're not talking about water neutrality in urban development, you're talking about water positivity in terms of actually thinking about how that's managed.

Darren Evans: 39:12

You're not thinking about net zero.

Martin Townsend : 39:14

You're saying what's the regenerative step beyond net zero that I can build into design will go beyond what people are talking about in the moment. You know I can take, you can take your other guests, can take your listeners. So far, it's about the action that results. That becomes really important.

Darren Evans: 39:33

And I think that what you raised there is an interesting question is around net zero. It's just following on from that. So who do you think should lead on it? Do you think that that should be people like yourself with that desire and hope inside to sow a seed that enables someone to start something that grows into something fantastic? Yeah, it's almost like a garden show, and then we're talking about able to see some things growing. But or is it someone like government that have to mandate things in legislation to make sure that that change happens, or that net zero as an example? So where do you think that that should be led and where do you think it is actually at the moment being led from?

Martin Townsend : 40:17

Oh, double-edged question. I think the most important thing here is that the industry shouldn't wait, and I've seen this when I've been to various cops, where there's an expectation that there will be a puff of white smoke and there will be some regulation which will set the direction for the industry. We don't have time to do that.

Darren Evans: 40:44

So it was kind of COP26 was COP26 was a glass kind of build like that, wasn't it? After COP26, like you're saying, the white smoke is going to rise. Yeah, didn't happen. The anointed one's going to come, and we're all going to be saved?

Martin Townsend : 40:59

Yeah, but there was really a series of interesting conversations in the green zone, which is the public zone, which is look, we, the industry, need to act. We understand that we're not, or we haven't, driven the change we need to at the speed we need to. There is not going to be any magic legislation. There is now more and more research which is telling us the impact of the sector and the sectors, I suppose, and actually it's the industry that needs to grab this task, it's the professionals within the industry that needs to actually move the dial, because actually that's where change will happen. So, to answer your question directly, I think it's the industry setting its own pace of change and it's the organizations, the architects, the materials manufacturers that need to innovate and demonstrate what good looks like which is where we need to be.

Martin Townsend : 41:58

If we are waiting for regulations and legislations to come and move the floor up in terms of what is required, then I think we're going to be disappointed, and I know we don't want to get political, but we've seen some of that, you know, as we head towards an election. So it is the industry that really needs to go right.

Martin Townsend : 42:20

We need to work together and maybe we need to work with other sectors whether our other examples are best practice to actually make things happen. So there is no magic bullet and everybody who's listening to your podcast has a role and responsibility to drive change. And if you get it right and I say this to a lot of people, you know, sometimes being more sustainable than regulation can be seen to be a burden. Actually, it can be a market advantage, it can drive value, it can sort of drive out inefficiency, it can make better environments. There are lots and lots of positives on that kind of balance sheet now.

Martin Townsend : 43:06

So the language has to change, you know, and it's about organizations thinking about what is a better business model or a better way of working, and I kind of the examples I often talk about when I start to look at the way the industry is changing in terms of providing products to providing services is a clear demonstration how they need to invest in the future. So, rather than saying, well, you know what HVAC system do you need on your building, you need to ask the question you know what temperature do you need, I will find the most efficient service and I will maintain and operate that service for you for all the life of that building. So I'm actually optimizing all the time in the best possible way. That's a change in thinking. It's a change in business model. It's also an improvement on efficiency. You can do that for lots of components within the built environment, be it the soft furnishings in terms of floorings and coverings, the lighting systems, the heating systems. It's about realizing that the business models will change over time.

Martin Townsend : 44:18

Buildings will change over time, so we need to make sure that, as we design them, we design them very differently, because they might have different uses in that time period. I remember working with one of the Bream assessors in Greece who designed a building which was an office and, because of the economic climate in Greece just didn't rent, didn't sell, didn't rent. So he decided well, it's okay, because I've designed it in a way that is a very strong shell and core, I'll turn it into hotel. So they convert it into hotel.

Darren Evans: 44:55

Pivot.

Martin Townsend : 44:55

Pivot and that, you know, in the built environment, in our urban sort of spaces, we are really going to need to think about what is the primary purpose of that, what was it designed to do, but what might it do in the future? And how do we design a way that allows that flexibility, that adaptability, because who knows what a part of the urban space is going to look like in 50 years time?

Darren Evans: 45:19

And I think that's the really exciting thing by you suggesting that it's the industry and the people that have the ability to change and to lead on this, instead of waiting for something else or someone else to come along and yeah and then later on.

Darren Evans: 45:34

Yeah, I'm 100% behind you on that one 100%. And to me that feels freeing, you know. It feels enabling, yes, it feels freeing. It gives me that sense of I can play, I can experiment with things, I can take what I have, I can decide what risk I want to take. Yeah, just up the ante just a little bit. Or I can do what that guy did in Greece, yeah, yeah, I can completely go off and just reshape and go and do something else Instead of crying on my pillow that you know, the government haven't gone quite as fast as I want them to.

Martin Townsend : 46:04

Yeah, so can I ask you to flip the question then to you yeah, sure, so what do you do for your staff to inspire them and to give them that space to experiment and explore?

Darren Evans: 46:17

So we speak very, very openly. I'm really open with my team, so they know that no question is off the table. My door is always open In fact I've not got a door and they can contact me at any time, as long as I'm not immersed in something else. If I'm immersed in something else, then I'll contact them later. So you know, if you want to be literally not any any time, but I'm always available to speak.

Darren Evans: 46:42

We have weekly calls where we talk about how the business is going and we celebrate in those calls things that people have done that are a bit different yeah and that have pushed the boundaries, or ways that someone has received some feedback from a client to say what you've done here has gone above and beyond, or you've worked more than what your fee is, yeah, and I celebrate that, as opposed to say, what do you mean?

Darren Evans: 47:10

You've given them an extra four hours, yeah. So what I'm looking to do is reward that type of mentality and behavior of let's push the boundaries and let's go out, as opposed to they've done that wrong, done that wrong, done the other thing wrong. The other approach that I have as well is I assume that I don't know the answer yeah which I always try and do, because I find that I learn more that way and I understand, probably more importantly, where someone's coming from. Yeah, and then when anybody wakes up in the morning and thinks you know, I'm really going to get on someone's nerves, someone is going to get it today, no one in that right mind anyway. Yeah, and I'm definitely people that work with me either that client or members of my team.

Darren Evans: 47:54

Yeah, and so with that as the, as the baseline of expectation, someone has something or does something or approaches something in a way that initially just sounds reckless or ill thought of or whatever. Yeah, it's always good just to go in there and just say okay, darren, you don't know everything, just gather information, just try and try and understand. Then, when you understand the reason why it's happened, as well as the solution will become apparent to those.

Martin Townsend : 48:23

Yeah, see, that's inspirational in terms of the culture you're creating, and I think, as leaders, it is about how you create the right culture to allow people to grow.

Martin Townsend : 48:34

But the other point you've picked on there, which is a lesson I learned really early on, I suppose, in my management career, is it's very easy to allow other people to dictate your behavior and your mood. Yes, so you know, I've done it this week, I'm quite sure, where I've had a really bad call or I've had a difficult call, and the next call, the mood of that call, is set by my previous call. Yes, so I just take a moment to go. That was one call, one conversation. I'm just taking a moment now to just to kind of check in on my mood ladder and go. Actually, this is a different group of people with a different issue. I need to actually set my mood and not let it be influenced. That's a skill that I think sometimes people either haven't cultivated or forgotten, but it's such an important one because if you allow other people to dictate how you feel, then actually things won't go well Definitely.

Darren Evans: 49:31

I'm sure I agree with that and I think that, going back to, maybe I'm a bit of a power freak, but I'd like to feel as though I've got the ability to decide how I approach people. Yep, just because someone has approached me in a negative way, was done something that I'm disappointed about, like you disappointed about. Yeah. I need to say I have to pass that on. Yes.

Martin Townsend : 49:55

Yes, which is effectively what?

Darren Evans: 49:57

you're saying is you know, pay the good stuff forward, not the other stuff Exactly. But you're right, you know it's not. I think it's taught in schools. I don't know if it's taught in universities. No, I don't know. Where did you learn that? How did you become aware of that?

Martin Townsend : 50:12

I remember going on a leadership course many, many years ago and the guy really good I think he was an ex military person and like some of those skills I learned on that course has stayed with me Okay. So like if I say the meeting is two o'clock, it's two o'clock. And I always remember some of the work we did with the Olympics and going to a lecture of why the I think it was the cycling team were so high performing. It's because when someone said you need to be at the training camp at two o'clock, actually that really meant you needed to be there at one 30 getting your gear ready. So when it started at two o'clock, you were there, not that you rock up at two o'clock and you haven't got your kit ready, because a high performing team is about everything.

Martin Townsend : 51:05

It's about your attitude, it's about your equipment, it's about preparation. So I can always remember that. But also remember this trainer saying to us your mood is completely in your control. You may not think it is, you might be having a bad day, but that is down to you and your decision that it's a bad day. If you decide that actually you're going to change that mood, that is completely in your gift and at that moment going, yeah, he's right.

Martin Townsend : 51:35

He is right, you know, and sometimes we are very conscious of the fact that our mood is for us to decide.

Darren Evans: 51:45

Well, I'm thinking now that it would be really good to go to the demolition zone, okay, so now, martin, we are in the demolition zone and you have created this myth here that you are going to knock down for us for a change. You are going to knock down for us very shortly, but before we go bashing anything down, what is this myth that's out there that just needs to be debunked or destroyed.

Martin Townsend : 52:16

I think the biggest myth and we've touched upon this a couple of times in our conversation which is change, performance, progress, is somebody else's problem, and it's not. It's something that we all have a role to play in, and it really really doesn't matter where you are in the industry, doesn't matter what role you play, doesn't matter if you were a supplier, doesn't matter if you were an architect, a client, whatever role you play, everybody has the opportunity to make a difference. I'm a firm believer that this is a inclusive, all-in contact sport, that basically, if we're gonna make change happen, this isn't about standing back, standing on the sidelines. It's somebody else's problem. Waiting for government, waiting for my boss, waiting for the organization to do something which I can then subscribe to or disagree with, and then crack on? No, sorry, if that is your mindset, I think you need to stop and pause. I think you need to say to yourself I need to really now think about what I can do to contribute, to make a difference, and it sounds like we have the ability to as well.

Martin Townsend : 53:30

Not only do we need to do it, but that we can do it, yep, and it's important that you know doesn't matter where you are. If you're, you know, in your own kind of personal sort of private time talking to people, share some of the stories, in spite I've done that on a number of occasions that my neighbors get really annoyed with me sometimes when I start to talk about recycling and what we can do as a community to drive change, because actually, you know, every opportunity is an opportunity to try and do something different. It is a professional kind of role, I think, to think about every aspect of our life.

Darren Evans: 54:12

Well, now that you've cleared it up, destroy the myth.

Martin Townsend : 54:19

And if you wanted a kind of what was that? What's the blue? It was no man is an Island. So the blue bit was basically the sea and basically the eye was the person standing on this island, because the green bits were trees. So the whole idea that was we're not islands, we are actually connected ecosystems where we all needed to play a role to drive change.

Darren Evans: 54:49

It's a great message, Martin.

Darren Evans: 54:51

And I agree with it wholeheartedly. That's the thing that I talk about, not just within my team, but effectively. That's the reason I started the podcast. Yeah, thank you. It's been a great conversation. Martin's been fantastic having you here on the podcast. Thanks for your time, thanks for your wisdom, your honesty and openness. Thank you. Thank you, pleasure.

Darren Evans: 55:42

I also want to thank you for the opportunity to join me on this podcast, and so, in order for me to do that, I really need your help, and the way that you can help is by sharing the podcast with the people that you know that you think may have a slight interest in, or maybe a deep interest in, the guests and topics that are covered on this podcast. It is all about construction, so that may lead your thinking towards people narrow with the people that we can reach out to. It could be somebody that's looking to get into an industry, but they're not quite sure what industry they want to get into. Maybe it's a teenager that is just finishing their GCSEs or starting A-levels. Maybe it's somebody that's doing an English degree at university, but it's not quite sure what they want to do with that degree. So I invite you just to share this podcast with as many people that you know, so that we can grow this community, so that we can maintain the quality, engaging conversations that we're having together. Thank you for your help.