Darren Evans : 0:00

Mike, someone's written in to us asking us a question with reference to weather files and their concern, fundamentally, is around the cloud seeding that has been reported in Dubai, and because we have now discovered a way what I mean by we is mankind has discovered a way to interfere or to affect weather patterns how reliable the data set's going to be on the weather files when we are using these mathematical models to pull together the various calculations that we need to do to ascertain whether an area is hotter or cooler than another area, which then impacts on the building's performance and and what's used?

Mike Brogden: 0:46

yeah, so the, the, the input files that we would use are based on gathering data and processing data and making predict predictions, like you say, based on mathematical models or certain kind of scenarios or situations that are projected in current, and so if we're able to manipulate that and adjust that, then that's another aspect that needs to be built into the calculations. They're built into the weather file itself. So I'm not familiar with everything that goes into the current weather file, assumptions and how they're created, but if this is a new part of our weather system, then it will just need to be included. Part of our weather system, then it will just need to be included and and we can, we can account for for that by using a particular file, that's generated.

Darren Evans : 1:30

Next question is can the dynamic modeling be done by anybody else apart from a specialized consultant?

Mike Brogden: 1:40

that's a good question. So the short answer is yes and the long answer is no, even though it's short.

Darren Evans : 1:47

I love that yeah.

Mike Brogden: 1:49

So there are no certification schemes, so you don't have to take a course. Demonstrate proficiency, sign up to an accreditation.

Mike Brogden: 2:01

There's no license is there. There's there's no qualification license related to that. But, like with all things, you need to be competent to provide guidance to to people. It's really, really important. So what you you tend to see is that if someone is competent in using ies software, for instance, dynamic modeling software, is that this will. Just it's a different way of entering data into the system and using a particular package to produce the result. So, like you say, anybody can do it. If you're familiar with the parameters of the modeling, the requirements of the approved document, you can do that. If you can interpret the results, then yes, but more often than not that's a bit of a jump and so you have to have a proficiency within a particular type of of dynamic modeling before you would you would seek to offer that, that out to customers. So hence the long answer is so.

Darren Evans : 3:08

So, yes, you can do it, but it's you're not going to do it in a really short time frame, because there's a whole load of information and skill set that you need to acquire and that's going to take significant time to do.

Mike Brogden: 3:22

Yeah, I can produce a calculation for you and give it to you, and you may never know that it's wrong. You know there's a real requirement for people to offer a service that they're competent in. They're able to get paid for something which is going to enable the right that no one wants to give something to someone. That isn't right. Next question Can you?

Darren Evans : 3:44

suggest some potential solutions that no one wants to. To give something to someone that isn't isn't right. Next question can you suggest some potential solutions for a ground floor bedroom to mitigate against overheating and also that provides security at night time?

Mike Brogden: 3:59

so part is to do with overheating, but it needs to keep people safe, and so being on the ground floor or being windows that are over, say, an extended part of the ground floor which enables people to climb up and easily, access needs to be mitigated against. It depends on what you want to use. So you could use grills, you could use shutters, you can use bars. Some of those seem quite heavy-handed and not really used to seeing those.

Mike Brogden: 4:31

Yeah, it's not particularly aesthetically pleasing but it's an option, right, yeah, so you've got those. Or the other way really is to look at some kind of louver that you might be able to use. Or you keep the window shut and in that particular location in the building, say for instance as block of flats, you might then rely on mechanical ventilation, some kind of different ventilation system that's able to to provide a greater ventilation solution where you can't rely on the windows being open at certain times of the of the night this question here is maybe a little bit of a curveball.

Darren Evans : 5:07

See what you think. Some people think that a room is really hot because they just are hot all the time, and some people think a room is really cold because they're just cold all the time. And so does it take into consideration the variances when you look at the software, the variances between people's preferred temperature, and the particular question here particularly references women versus men. So they're suggesting here that men are always hot and women are always cold. So does the software take that into consideration?

Mike Brogden: 5:42

the software is just a mathematical thing, that's, you know, just does what it's told to do. But the song man's not hot, never hot, it doesn't apply to that situation. And I don't know what the temperature is like on venus and mars, because men are from one and women from the other. But you know, the the software is designed to, it is a set point. And you know, I uh, I have a father-in-law who's from yorkshire and the man's always got his windows and doors open, complaining that it's too hot.

Mike Brogden: 6:14

And so even within, within the male species, you know, people suffer temperature in in completely different ways. So that that is a, that is a conundrum that I don't think will ever be able to be satisfied. I'll buy a house, you'll buy a house. You may think it's fantastic, I may think it's too hot and stuffy. So personal preference you can't mitigate against personal preference or the way our bodies function in slightly different ways, and so we've got to lump that one. Or you know the way our bodies function in in slightly different ways, and so you know that's, that is we.

Darren Evans : 6:47

Just we've got a lump, that one sounds like a social problem as opposed to a building regulations problem.

Mike Brogden: 6:52

Just yeah, I think it have loads of blankets in your eyes ready.

Darren Evans : 6:57

Then you know can you help me understand the difference between TM-52 and TM-59?

Mike Brogden: 7:07

So TM-59 deals with overheating in residential buildings and TM-52 deals with overheating in non-residential buildings.

Darren Evans : 7:18

So can you give a brief explanation? You've done that already. Ignore that one. Is Revit software reliable for thermal and cooling load calculations?

Mike Brogden: 7:29

My level of expertise doesn't extend, maybe, into those realms, but my understanding is that there isn't At the moment there's no plugins that work as efficiently and effectively answering some of those questions as a specific dynamic software in part o, specifically on page six very specific what paragraph we'll come back to that one later but in part o it makes reference to buildings having cross ventilation.

Darren Evans : 8:00

So if a room has a north and a west facing windows, which maximum glazing area percentage should be used?

Mike Brogden: 8:10

So you'll always be required to use whatever is worse or more stringent. So you'll have to figure that out and then pick whichever is more stringent.

Darren Evans : 8:22

Do you believe that solar shading could be beneficial in residential scenarios?

Mike Brogden: 8:26

Short answer yes, it's one tool in the toolbox to prevent a building from overheating. We're not really we don't see that on our building designs at the moment, but yeah, 100%.

Darren Evans : 8:39

Does Part O apply for other domestic buildings, such as a new freestanding building for a swimming pool or a gym?

Mike Brogden: 8:48

so again, tm52 would probably cover non-domestic freestanding structures. Tm59, part o, would sprawl it across into things like care homes, where you've got a variety of different dwellings contained in a larger building. But you'd probably be looking at tm52 for for that does part o apply to hospital buildings?

Mike Brogden: 9:14

you'd have to read the fine print. There's a section in part o that would talk about that. I'd say I'd say no, but it could do, because it requires people to stay in a particular place for a period of time. So that would definitely be one to take some guidance on, and I know there's a specific section in Part O where it talks about where Part O applies and where it doesn't apply, and so you need to refer to that section.

Darren Evans : 9:39

What advice would you offer to designers and practitioners who are relatively new to navigating part o into their design process?

Mike Brogden: 9:47

with all things, you'd need to read the regulations. Read the regulations. Start early so that you're not trying to overlay a requirement on a design that's already in motion or in construction. So you'd need to do that, and I partner with someone that you believe you can. You can trust to to to help you with that part. I would just give you some guidance on window sizes, potentially, and so forth. But you want to design the building to be naturally ventilated where you can, so you're trying to ensure that window sizes are in the right place to allow more opening windows. You'll want to make sure that there's cross ventilation, and and so some of the kind of key principles you want to be familiar with before you. Before you, you're set to work.

Darren Evans : 10:44

Really, that's what I would say and are there any emerging trends or advancements in the building materials or the construction techniques that can help address thermal comfort challenges while meeting the part o requirements?

Mike Brogden: 10:58

trying to solve everyone's overheating, cold situation in the dwellings is like it says you're not gonna, you're never gonna, solve that problem. But there's always innovative products that are dealing with thermal mass, innovative glazing products that are trying to allow and restrict light solar gain, and so forth. So, yeah, there's a variety of different products that are emerging onto the market. I wouldn't be able to list them all, but you know the materials we use. They'll adapt and adjust to the requirements that we've got to comply with.

Darren Evans : 11:37

I should be pleased to know. That's the end of the quickfire questions. Thank you, I thought you'd be pleased. So the thing I want to talk about now is the current regulations that we're in at the moment. There's been a recent change and that's meant photographs need to be sent and there's a whole load of different processes that we need to go through. Can you talk about what those changes are, what some of the issues are that people are bumping up against, and then if you can give us some nuggets of wisdom of how those things can be overcome things to watch out for on the horizon and any other little bit of fairy dust that you can sprinkle on the top?

Mike Brogden: 12:18

So for years, the EPC process was the same. It involved the developer or architect contractor signing a form to declare that the specification that had gone into the calculation had been built on site, and the performance gap is an issue between what's designed and what's built and how it operates, and so, trying to solve that problem, the new regulations took a step towards closing that gap, and so there was an introduction. Appendix b in part l 2021 details out the process that needs to be taken during construction, for photographs to be taken, and those photographs should confirm that insulation the right insulation has been put in the right place, the right products have been used, so that what is designed is built, and so that should yield a closing of that, that performance gap. What it, what it requires is anybody can take them, but they need to take them as the building's built, and then it's an additional piece of communication that needs to be circulated between the developer or the, the architect and the and the SAP assessor. Both people need to sign the, the document declaring that what has been built is representative of what has been designed, and that forms some of the evidence that goes to the building control officer and it goes towards the to the homeowner as well, and so the the challenge that it poses is a new process, and so trying to pick up all of the changes with the new part L is always tricky, and so, assuming that people are taking pictures, that's really important. So at the end of the project you've got a few other requirements that need to be included in the EPC process. So, very, very early on, if you can give your SAP assessor an understanding of the dates that certain plots are going to be completing in a particular month, it's really, really useful. At the beginning of the project, there needs to be almost a design summary signed so everyone's clear on any changes that have taken place during the build, any changes that have taken place during the build.

Mike Brogden: 14:55

Maybe there was a substitute product used in the external wall, or the heating system had to be tweaked, or the ventilation system was different, or the amount of pv is has been adjusted. So we need to confirm. Confirm that up front. Receiving the addresses up front again is really important. It can be input against the dwellings. That can happen at any time.

Mike Brogden: 15:14

As soon as the the building has been as close to the end, lighting needs to be confirmed, as well as one that maybe people aren't spotting. So sometimes the sales team can adjust the the lighting design in a particular home. You know the homeowner has some some say over some of the finishes maybe, and so lighting now. The number of bulbs and the efficacy of the bulbs needs to be incorporated at the end so that that's an internal piece of communication. It needs to take place whether the sales team speak to the construction team as to what's been done or whether someone goes in and counts bulbs and the different types of fittings that have been there and provides the technical information. That's really, really important.

Mike Brogden: 15:59

But you want to be able to clear as much of that up front so that once the air test is done and any mcs certificate relating to the air source heat pump or ground source heat pump or any kind of pv that you might have installed on a dwelling can be provided through, that can then release the BREL or BRWL document if it's in Wales for it to be signed by the appropriate individual from for the construction team and by the assessor, and then all documents can can be received. Epc can be completed, the sap calculation can be completed, it can be issued out. So there is it's more coordination. It needs to be done early, but that it shouldn't elongate the process too much. But where there are things missing, that's going to be. That's going to be the the kind of fly in the ointment, really, that's going to delay the issue of the EPC and the completion of dwellings.

Mike Brogden: 16:59

We've got experience of Barra and Vistri, where they've got to use their own systems to collate the photographs. Where people haven't got that, they'd reach out to your energy assessor as soon as you can to see if they've got a document that you can populate by return or they need to create one which links the photographs with the appropriate subheading and appendix b and and doing that ahead of time, thinking through that process now and and coordinating on that is really important because if you don't do that then you know hand over time. It's always a busy period, always a busy period, and so you want to, you want to clear some of the debris now and make sure everyone's okay on that. You know we've got a process. We've which we've yet to give to people, which we need to do next couple of weeks, which we've yet to give to people which we need to do next couple of weeks, but we're starting to get people ask questions around, how do I give the photos to you and how does that work? And what's my time? What's the? Is there a checklist? Is there a sequence? You know how can I make it more efficient? What can I do now to kind of prep for it?

Mike Brogden: 18:12

The other point that I think it's useful to maybe dwell on is this calculation versus consultant. You know, I really, I really feel you know you've got that with with part. Oh, you asked a question and I was how do I say this? You slipped my mind, but where you've you? Anyone can calculate it. It doesn't mean it's right, it doesn't. It doesn't mean it gives right, it doesn't mean it gives the construction company potentially the most cost-effective solution, but it may work.

Darren Evans : 18:41

So I would probably use that, because you used an analogy there, and I think that the analogy probably could be just adjusted slightly is anybody can get a car to move forward, but it doesn't mean to say that you can drive, or anyone can drive a car around the block, but that doesn't mean to say that you can drive, or anyone can drive a car around the block, but that doesn't mean to say that you're a good chauffeur, because what you're looking for is an experience, and so I think that when you're looking at the difference between a consultant and someone that can input data, the consultant will give you an experience, and that experience will enable you to make a decision or to get something sorted so that you can do something else I guess, if the point we're talking about is to go from calculation to consultancy, there's there's competency and there's also like interest, like you've really got wanted to do that, yes, with your passion.

Mike Brogden: 19:32

You're not just doing it because that we've bumped into people that just want to calculate, don't they? They just, it's just volume. It's master business model is lots in, lots out, quick gone, whereas the other, the other model is I'm interested in helping you use your revenue to build better buildings. That's what I'm interested in. This is a different type of impact, it's a different type of approach and, I think, moving forward it's. It's important to assess how are you engaged with people that give you the outcome you want? If you just want someone that gives you high volume without really an understanding, then then make sure you stay with them.

Mike Brogden: 20:12

I think, with the new regulations, trying to make sure your bill costs stay within certain parameters is really important, because if you can conserve revenue, you can invest it in the right way. When you, when you, hemorrhage revenue, everything feels like costly, every. Your profit margins are down. You're not able to to maximize and get and return what you want. So I think that's a point I'd really like to to make is that spend your money, but spend your money in the right place on the right thing. Be intentional with it.

Mike Brogden: 20:47

Yeah, rather than it's supposed to cost me six grand and it has cost me six grand, but you've not delivered the product. You could have done if, actually, you engaged with a consultant in a different way. You got them in early. You saw them as someone that could make your house type decisions better, rather than oh, at the end I need to get this done, so I need to send this to this person here yeah, yeah, it's a good point and and I've been on round tables, panels, where the discussion has been we need to act urgently for the sake of the climate.

Darren Evans : 21:26

We need to do this with our buildings and that and the other. And just picking up on what you're saying here and we've discussed this privately between the two of us is the building to net zero has been something that has been possible for a long time, but the reason that it's not in the mass market is because people aren't willing to pay for it at the moment. That's the that's the main blocker, but I think that the reason that people aren't willing to pay for it at the moment, that's the that's the main blocker. But I think that the reason that people aren't willing to pay for it is because the root to it, or there is a preference of spending money in other areas, because they're used to wasting money in those areas, and so by engaging and consulting, that enables enables those areas that are currently being wasted to be eradicated and that money can then be transferred into other areas so that the buildings can be built at net zero.

Mike Brogden: 22:22

Yeah, we know how to build to net zero. We're doing it, people are doing it, but doing it on scale. I is the is the next challenge. This, it's being able to take a product and and produce that on scale in a way that industry is able to, to deliver and engage with and consumers are happy to, to, to buy and and to to live within. Yeah, because they see the value of it right. Yeah, and policy needs to point us in that direction.

Darren Evans : 22:53

You know we need to have, we need to have requirements, policies, procedures, regulations which deliver the product that we're actually trying to, we're trying to go after yeah, I think the policy has its place, for sure, but I think that you know my overarching feeling and and we've spoken about this lots and lots is that we need to have the ability and recognize the ability for us to do stuff because we want to do it. We need to have the freedom to choose, and when we're saying we want the government to do this and we want policy to do that, that points us closer to a communist type of living and environment, which the government then dictates what is right and what's not right in every sense and, yes, it, it does need to govern that in some senses, but in every sense it it can't do. And people need to take responsibility for themselves and for their own actions, instead of giving their responsibility up to the, to the government or to any other organization to say, well, you tell me what to do and and I'll go and do it. I mean what? What is that if it's not slavery? I mean that's the, that's the.

Darren Evans : 24:08

The of it is where someone is deciding what you do, where you go, what you don't do, where you don't go, and you behold unto them. That's the antithesis of it, if that's the right word to use, and I think that we can sleepwalk ourselves into crying out for please, enslave us, keep us all all together, tell us what to do and we'll do it, and you can save us. It's like, no, let's work together and say, well, this is where we want to go, and let's just actually just start doing it and stop waiting for the government to come along and and save us. I mean, how many governments have?

Mike Brogden: 24:45

anyway, I'm probably rambling now, but it has a policy, has a place to stretch and challenge industry and industry has a place to move us forward.

Mike Brogden: 24:57

But we need to do that in tandem.

Mike Brogden: 24:59

We need to have something which stretches, which questions, which pushes, which delivers, something which achieves. If it's important for us to reduce carbon emissions, we have to be able to do it at scale and we have to do it across the whole building stock. It can't just be a one-trick pony which is new, build only. It needs to go across the whole building stock and it needs everyone to buy into that. And so if you're able to save some of the money, or if you're able to use your money in the right place in the right way, then you're able to reinvest it, to move forward in in greater, at a greater pace. And I think that's what I find that really exciting is to be able to to to help people to deliver something more than they thought potentially that they could do, whether that's better building in central London, you know a high rise or whether that's, you know, an individual dwelling where someone doesn't think that they can incorporate or achieve certain thresholds, and we're able to help them to achieve that. I find real achievement in doing that.

Darren Evans : 26:12

One of the things I look at is this concept that we've seen, I've heard of a number of times with henry ford. You know he wasn't asking the question let's just get quicker horses, how do we make the horse go quicker? He's like, well, let's just create the motor engine. And I appreciate that some people out there may think well, that's the thing that got us here. If we were all running around on horse and cart, then the life would be better. But let's, even if that's true, which I don't think it is let's put that to the side and say that it's the, it's the adaptation and the complete thinking shift that enables the propulsion forward. And so the same has happened in the mobile phone market Nokia.

Darren Evans : 26:56

I remember being younger having a Nokia phone and I absolutely loved it. I remember getting a Blackberry and I absolutely loved that thing. And then the iPhone came along and I was like why we got this iPhone? And then I remember using it and I'm like, wow, you've just completely shifted my whole paradigm, my whole way of thinking with reference to how I interact with my phone. And so that's the thing that I'm trying to work on with the business is, how do we shift completely the thinking so that we actually get to the place that we want to go to, instead of asking for faster horses or more blackberries, or you understand what I mean yeah.

Mike Brogden: 27:34

So I guess there's there's two ways of of looking at that comments I've made. One is you've got ai and our ai integrates with the process of of calculating and compliance, acknowledgement, acknowledgement and so forth, and so we're yet to see how that's going to come into play, but that's definitely going to feature in terms of how we move forward. I think I guess trying to get a horse to run faster with that analogy is, you know, go back to early 2000s and the EPC was something it was very last minute. It was a certificate that needed to be produced, but there was no need to involve anybody in that apart from pushing the button to produce the EPC.

Mike Brogden: 28:27

And then, over the last 20 years, the requirements of having somebody who is a specialist in the regulations has become further and further to the fore, now to the point where actually having that in-depth knowledge is difficult to have if you're in another specialist field.

Mike Brogden: 28:53

And so I think one of the things which is really really important with the, with the kind of evolution of the regulations again, is is almost to incorporate these, you know, energy consultants into the design process, you know, so that at the beginning we're able to to ask the right questions to enable the building costs to be measured, to enable the building to be thermally efficient, to comply with part o, part l, to meet part k, to have these discussions early on with architects, to talk about the the role of psi values.

Mike Brogden: 29:35

How can we mitigate that? You know? How can we accurately account for a more holistic building heat loss? How is there a way to record, is their appetite to record the actual fabric energy efficiency in a building and then feed that back into evolving designs? You know. So there there is an evolution that we we can get with now and we can change how we move forward, whilst I I'm conscious that you that coming is probably a radical change around how technology plays a more prominent role in coordinating some of the functions that we do at the moment ourselves.

Darren Evans : 30:20

Well, mike, normally what I do with guests that come on the podcast is I get them to come to the demolition zone with me, build up something which is a representation of a myth, and then talk about it and knock it down. You up for doing that. Sure, let's do it good. Okay, we're back in the demolition zone. Mike, what is this monstrosity that you have built?

Mike Brogden: 30:43

I wanted to build the biggest tower that you've had on the podcast. It is out of frame.

Darren Evans : 30:48

It really is out of frame. I reckon that's getting on for three foot high, to be honest, like jenga.

Mike Brogden: 30:54

That's what it is a big one but I got an idea about what so. So on it, you've got a sheep. Yep, we shouldn't follow the crowd. Yep, we shouldn't be a sheep. There's a stop sign on there. Yeah, we need to stop this, yep.

Darren Evans : 31:07

So it's kind of, you know, a few little different blocks on there as well, I think and for those people that are listening, the, the structure is extremely tall, it's, I think it's like the reminds me of the burj khalifa, it's.

Mike Brogden: 31:21

It's that tall, oh wow if I could design something like that, then that'd be fantastic. So what does it represent? So I think in the industry sometimes and in business, we can get quite worried about other people, competitors, other organizations, and I. I think if we're to move forward, you know we need to carve our own part of the field out, be clear about what it is that we do and, and confident in what we do and we. It needs to be okay just to to collaborate together. I think over the years it feels it's a them and us, or and and. If we're to really make a big difference, we need to work together and to be open to collaborating and and and sharing how we can solve this problem of carbon reduction or net zero. We need to work together rather than see other organizations that provide the same service as a competition or someone to be avoided or to protect ourselves from.

Darren Evans : 32:26

And by doing this, this will help us to achieve net zero quicker. Is that what you're saying?

Mike Brogden: 32:31

it'll enable us to to come together and collaborate more. You know the the new regulations will require more organizations, more design team members to work together earlier and closer, and, as there's wider industry collaboration to solve a big problem, we're going to need to work together in the same place to achieve the same result, and so that will enable us to benefit from each other's learning experience and find better solutions.

Darren Evans : 33:05

So the sheep is stop following the crowd. Is that what the sheep is representative of? Yeah, you know. Be willing to be is representative of.

Mike Brogden: 33:11

You know be willing to be different. You know be willing to try something new, be willing to to approach other people in the industry in a in a different way. You know there's no need to be upset by them or, you know, just to take a different approach really good well, I think now all you can do is just destroy the myth. Right then, here we go, going to kick it out.

Darren Evans : 33:41

With a slight swipe of the right foot, your cheek hit completely down and your nilly came out from underneath you. That would have been a different type of program when you try something different.

Mike Brogden: 33:52

sometimes you just got to be nimble, get your balance right. Afterwards it could throw you off. Do you know what I mean? That's what it is.

Darren Evans : 34:00

I love that, mike, I love that. So we've discussed quite a lot today. I think there's lots of elements of our conversation that are pointing towards the future, predominantly within the residential space. But I'm wondering if you've got any thoughts on on anything else relating to not just a topic that you discussed here about better collaboration, but anything else kind of connected to the the industry as a as a whole picture how we as an organization interact with architects, with mechanical and electrical organizations, with the end client. I wonder how we as an organisation interact with architects, with mechanical and electrical organisations, with the end client. I wonder if you've got any thoughts or any views on that to share.

Mike Brogden: 34:42

I think we've made lots of points today, so try not to kind of repeat what's been said, but the need to really work together and be vulnerable. I think it's really important, this balance between feeling personally, professionally competent, but at the same time, when we, when we look in the industry, sometimes we can compare ourselves with others and we can see other individuals and we do it in life, don't we? You know, we measure our success, our performance, our self-esteem based off how we imagine others to live their life, by the way that we? We view them, and I think, professionally, we need to be mindful of that as well.

Mike Brogden: 35:25

It's okay to be competent, but also to still be learning and to to see somebody else's expertise as an opportunity for us to learn, rather than it be a message to ourselves that actually we're not enough or that we're we're not as competent as we thought we could be. I think is you can have confidence and vulnerability, you can have competence and learning all together, and it's only our own thought process that stops us learning anything. So if you don't know it right now, then be honest enough to say I don't know that and I'm going to learn about it. And and the longer you you spend time talking to people or reading things about it, you'll you'll be proficient in it before no time.

Darren Evans : 36:20

Thanks, mike. I think this is one of the reasons why it was so great to get you on here to run this more of us kind of a CPD session as opposed to kind of the stereotypical. I wasn't stereotypical. That's why I think it's so good to have you on here to run this CPD session instead of the more regular podcast that I've done. So thanks for dropping your wisdom. Thanks for doing the great stuff that you do for the company and the way that you work with the members of the team and the customers. It's been great having you here building your Burj Khalifa tower, kicking it down with your right foot. Thanks very much, mike.

Darren Evans : 36:59

Props, I'd like you to do me a favor, and I don't mean here just to ask you to subscribe and to follow, but what I'd really like you to do is to share this podcast with as many people as you think would benefit from it. I would love to maintain the quality of people that are joining me on this podcast, and so, in order for me to do that, I really need your help. It could be somebody that's looking to get into an industry, but they're not quite sure what industry they want to get into. Maybe it's a teenager that is just finishing their GCSEs or starting A-levels. Maybe it's somebody that's doing an English degree at university but is not quite sure what they want to do with that degree. So I invite you just to share this podcast with as many people that you know so that we can grow this community, so that we can maintain the quality, engaging conversations that we're having together. Thank you for your help.