[00:00:00] How long have you, how long have you been in the business? So I started working in architecture firms when I was about 15. So I'm about mid forties now. So, you know, how did you get in at 15? That's super young. I could, I could do drafting and I could use, we were using pen and ink obviously at that point.

But, um, yeah, I was, I was doing stuff at, you know, Oh, I, I did work experience in a local architecture, just a husband and wife team who were of drawing the local scout hat, that kind of stuff. Um, and then I went to sixth form college in Bath doing a technical course, A-G-M-V-Q course rather than A levels.

And then I was working for my tutors there, drafting and doing all sorts of drawing and things at the weekend. Um, but yeah, any chance I had to work in an office I did was really good fun. What is it you think you love about it? Oh, it's a big question, really. I think. I don't know. It's just my career has changed so much over time, really.

So I started from a very technical approach, you know, wanting to know how buildings went together and drawing details and all sorts of other things that [00:01:00] at sixth form college. And then I found more creativity and joy in different ways throughout my career. So I, so I think in terms of a career, it's a very broad, broad thing to do, um, to the point where I've almost thought, I wish I'd done an art foundation now, but you know, maybe at one point in my, um, Before I retire I could go and do that What do you expect an art foundation to do for you?

I think there's that looseness and freedom that comes with with that that I probably didn't have as You know, I was quite constrained by the kind of technical aspects of the work that I was doing at the time To the point where I think of oh, that's that's too difficult. We couldn't possibly detail that and now actually Coming to the point where actually anything's possible you know, we're Smart enough and bright enough to hopefully do anything What, what, uh, what got you into the idea of setting up your own company?

Hmm. Never really thought I wanted to do it actually. And I'd [00:02:00] always enjoyed the idea of working for other people. Okay. Uh, very much looking towards the idea of a mentor or completing an apprenticeship, I think. So I'd always thought that, you know, I was behind another leader and, and, and delivering and learning, learning my craft through that really.

Um. But then a lot changed when I turned 40, I think, uh, COVID happens, uh, changed a lot of things. And then I think I got to a point in my career where I'd maybe allowed myself to think I was, might be good enough to have a little go on my own. Um, you know, and, and see if we could do something our own way rather than somebody else's way, basically.

Um, And the logic behind that was, well, you can always just go and get another job. You know, why not, if not now? And I guess the, the, the, the, the slightly maybe nihilistic view of, um, when COVID happened that we could all be dead next week. So, um, we should probably just give it a go, see what happens. You mentioned about giving yourself permission.

What, what did, what did that [00:03:00] look like and sound? Um, interesting. I think. From quite a working class background, maybe, and it's whether you feel like you're able to deserve that. And it seems like a very potentially showy thing to go and say, you're good enough to run your own firm. Um, and avoiding any accusation of being arrogant and doing it on your own terms, I think maybe, so I think I'd probably come to terms with myself in terms of who I was and where I sat within my career and the people I've worked with and had some brilliant experiences to then think, well, maybe I could, you know, Apply those kind of things or those, or those, that, that thinking or design, uh, methodology to how I might want to do things going forward.

And actually probably, I don't think it was driven by a particularly egotistical kind of wanting to make a mark on the world or anything, but like, this would be fun to give a go, you know? So why not? You talk about coming to know yourself or kind of, um, What am I what was the phrase that you used so [00:04:00] emotional intelligence is coming to know who you are and like know yourself I mean, what was that?

I think it was that did I happen around the age of 40 ish? Yeah, a few other things were going on at the time I think you as you become older you start reflecting on lots of things the idea of one's mortality, you know, we're not here forever What did my uncle say to me? No, I think it's just Oh, you're about halfway through then when I hit 40.

So, you know, you're about halfway through. So what are you going to do now? Um, fairly, fairly blasé way of looking at it. Um, he's great Trevor, but yeah. Um, why, why not? You know, let's, let's, let's try. Cause it's a very different skill set, running your own business to being an architect. Correct. Yeah.

Interestingly, actually, I'd really struggled before that with. Being very good at my job or you know, useful at my job employable I guess probably better of saying it to then becoming a manager. I'd really struggled with that You know, you're good at a job. So then they take the job away from you and do something.

You're not not good at and then [00:05:00] Starting your own firm remembering how to do my job again So, you know this kind of like sinusoidal wave and then actually getting to the point where actually we had to deliver some work and I used to run the CAD, now I couldn't use CAD, so, uh, And then getting to the point where I actually have to step away from that and employ people, and we're back on the same path again, so, Um, it does involve a lot of different skills.

And I think, actually, what's nice about it is that we could grow quite organically into that, so it's just a series of different, Problems maybe, or, or issues to solve as you grow. You don't have to do it all at once. How have you bridged that gap between your current position and your aspiration of where you wanted to be or that growth element?

That's interesting. I think I'm quite hard on myself in terms of wanting to do a lot. Uh, and in a short timeframe? Yeah, of course. I want it all done yesterday. Um, not because of, again, through kind of a sense of ego, but because I've kind of quite driven in terms of. Um, how and why and probably come on to that, I guess.

But, um, I [00:06:00] think one thing we've started talking about a bit is actually the idea of incremental improvement and you don't see the great things that you've improved on all the time because you're always focused on the next challenge or the next issue to move forward, develop, put a system in place, whatever you're going to do.

Um, and actually it was lovely to meet a client or we didn't end up working together. We're still in contact. About two years apart. And she gave me some lovely feedback. I said, well, you're completely different now. I said, well, I hadn't even realized I thought I was just the same. So I think without other people coming in and showing you what we have achieved or having the ability to set back and reflect potentially on that, then you don't see all those little things you've improved every single day.

So you mentioned about the way that you are now and the way that your mind works. Well, just go through that. What, what do you mean by that? So, uh, three years ago ish in September, I had a diagnosis for ADHD, um, which was a bit of a shock to me, a bit of a shock to a few other people as well. [00:07:00] Um, when you say shock, do you mean like horror shock?

No, not really. Just a surprise. You know, you think, um, there's obviously a, a cliche involved in terms of what you think that might be. So, and a lot of friends I told, so that's a bit, that's not you, whatever. Um, I think that's just through a lack of understanding, but Through having achieved a few little things and having a, you know, in practice that kind of thing, some people couldn't quite process that that might be a thing.

So, um, yeah, that was really interesting process of discovery, learning about that, understanding oneself, looking back, but also looking forward about how you, how you focus on the positive aspects of that. Um, and. Ask for help with the less positive things of, and that's very particular to each, each person, obviously.

Um, so I find certain things hugely rewarding and really want to go at. Other things are really quite difficult. So, you know, it's balancing those two, really. And also trying to [00:08:00] have some consistency through that so that you're not just frenetic and bouncing off things. Can you talk through how you came to the point where you were considering, okay, I need to go and speak to someone or see someone.

Yeah, of course. So I think, um, we're back to COVID basically. So what I now understand was that cycling to work every day, the structures in place at work, frameworks that were around me and so on. Had kept those things largely in check. Um, and also things like caffeine and alcohol and things had helped self medicate to a certain point within there.

How did caffeine and alcohol help or how did it affect you? Should I say? Uh, ultimately helped with the kind of dopamine response and kind of kept me, kept me, kept me going really through that. Uh, and that was the same with exercise. Um, and, and, you know, quite obsessive about exercise to a point where I was riding 600 kilometers in a weekend and things like that.

So. And then nothing, but, um, this was pre COVID. You were right. Yeah, exactly. [00:09:00] So then COVID comes along, can't go out. I can't exercise. I can't use those tools to kind of keep me in place. And, um, certain things just aren't quite working out really. Um, as well as reading up on a few things and discussing with a friend and a few online tests and then exploring it and learning about it and so on.

Um, and the thing that enabled me to go and get a test was actually somebody saying to me, well, I don't know anyone who's read in depth, and I had read in quite considerable depth about it, who'd gone and done all that research and then gone and said, No, no, no, it's not, it's not you, you're just an idiot.

Which is ultimately what I thought was going to happen. You used the word idiot, it's quite a strong word. Is that what you felt? Well, I guess I'd imagined in my mind that there'd be this scenario where, Lovely psychologist I met, he said, thank you ever so much for your time. He just not very good at some things, you know, so, you know, and, and in my mind that could have been quite a plausible scenario, um, but it wasn't actually, it was quite the opposite.

So, you know, [00:10:00] so ultimately describing to me the certain behaviors throughout my life and certain scenarios has been as a result of, um, uh, I guess being made in a slightly different way or what you might consider outside of a, you know, The idea of neurotypical, so a range of everybody's brain is different.

Um, but you're, you're without outside of that range and, and in a very specific way. So do any thoughts come to mind when you think about other adults that may be in a similar position to how you were and what they could do? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what's interesting about it is that, um, I read about it a lot at the time You end up with clouds of diagnosis around people.

So you've, by accident, you've surrounded yourself by people with people, sorry. Um, who are very similar to you. You think in a very similar way and you bond very closely to them. So what happened is that has been a bit of a wave through my friendship group. And so, and other people [00:11:00] have under understood that themselves a bit more through what I've talked about, what I've written online and generally just sharing information.

Um, how to seek advice tricky. I think there's a lot of, um, it's a lot of bad information out there. So tick tock, Instagram reels, and so on to the point where anybody could have it. But however, I, I found a lot of things were very, very useful. Um, but like all of these things, there's people who are attracted to that, who then you might call grifters who want to sell t shirts on the back of it.

So. A little bit of caution, probably advised for those things you see online and actually checking your sources and seeing where some of that information has actually come from, really. Um, but there's some fantastic books and resources out there. Give me two books, if you can, off the top of your head. Oh, I couldn't remember them.

I'm afraid. I think they're ones called ADHD 2. 0. I've forgotten the author. Okay. I didn't read all of it as a page in there. There's a table in there, which blew my mind. So, [00:12:00] uh, and I scanned that as a PDF in my phone somewhere. Yeah. Um, but yeah, decent, decent medically referenced sources. I think as opposed to take your information from tick tock and rely on that.

I mean, you have to be careful as well, because actually that sharing and being very open about that stuff has also helped a lot of people find and understand themselves, uh, and reduce the amount of, um. Anxiety and angst they might feel about not knowing who they are really. Um, so I think it does have its place, but just like, um, what's, what do they say on films?

If your discretion is advised, you know, something like that really. Good. So going back to how this now integrates with your business and your desire to shift From being an architect to being a business owner. Yes. Yes. What are some of the things that stand out through that process for you as you reflect on that?

I think it goes back to this idea of [00:13:00] being good at something and then not being able to do it. So what would be lovely for me is to sit and draw and have my headphones in all day and just, uh, but that's not how you grow a business, unfortunately. Um, you know, and actually to be fair, I could have a lovely, um, sole practitioner type role doing that kind of thing and be very happy, but my aspiration is a little bit more than that.

So in terms of growing the business, I need to find Uh, a team that can work with me. Um, and that's quite clear. They can work with me cause I'm not always easy. Um, and I have very, very high standards, but also that there's trust in those people that I can then go and do other things that are very important to bring those, bring those things into business, like work, um, talk to podcasts, do nice things.

Um, But I find that quite tricky because this doesn't feel like work, you know, um, it feels like I'm in a very privileged position and I [00:14:00] should be back in the office working a bit harder and plugged into a computer, but ultimately, uh, I should be going and talking to people and, and, and, and that is, that is work now.

That is, that is what I should be doing. Yeah. You are the, the talisman for the, uh, the organization. Yeah. Yeah. Ultimately, um, People want to work, it's very hard to think about, but people want to work with me or not. And that's a very important distinction as well. Um, and the idea is that the team that we've built share the values that I have.

And that that's a kind of, you know, we, we share those, those collective ambitions and values and goals really. So, I don't want people to be the same as me. Quite the opposite actually. Um, I want people to challenge me and hold me to account obviously. Um, but is it important that we have a kind of shared thread that kind of binds us all together there, really?

You mentioned about your standards being high. How does that show up [00:15:00] when you deal with the other members of your team who you feel standards don't quite match yours in specific areas? I think it's very difficult for anyone, um, because those standards probably aren't fixed as well. Sometimes they can change, you know, and they can change and adapt, um, I think everything comes down to communication.

So I have to be better at communicating what I want, writing it down, sticking to it, not changing it. Um, they have to be open and willing to kind of engage with that and come on that journey. Um, but also coming to realize that I have quite a bit of experience to share as well, and hopefully, you know, hear their experience and share my experience and, and somewhere in between those two things is the, is a really, really nice result.

And take a great amount of joy from seeing people doing things and maybe, you know, having some feedback and then seeing that really thrive and come out the other side. That is, that's really rewarding, you know. [00:16:00] So, uh, you talk about, um, understanding who you are. Yes. Are you ADHD you? Or is that completely separate?

Well, that's the, that's something that I explored afterwards through quite a lot of, um, therapy, which is, I found really fascinating. So, uh, I take some medication each morning to help me, um, man, manage that. And it's, and I'm very fortunate it works for me. Um, but then the idea of like, who is one and who is oneself and, um, if I can allow to use this word, but I can still be an asshole.

It just might not be. I can't blame it all on that. So that's the thing. There's my character and personality. There's my environmental factors, all those kinds of things. So it was a bit of a mess for a while about all those things and what, what those things look like. And, um, it's almost like a process of reassembling oneself afterwards and, and trying to come to find some authentic self within there, if you know what I mean.

So quite disturbing to kind of deal with that later in life, but better to have [00:17:00] done it than not at all. I think. And would you say that you've got, you know, Clarity and comfort now and who you are. I think so. There's still a bit of a hangover hangover from it, I think. So, um, there's almost a bit of like messaging people after Sam.

Sorry, I talk too much or, um, most people couldn't care less because we're all thinking about ourselves, aren't we? Really? Um, but yeah, there's still work to do. It's not, I'm not fixed. You know, none of us are fixed. I think, I think you need to keep going at those things and trying to understand and trying to learn more.

Um, but having gone very deep on learning, I actually kind of, I've, I've read enough and I don't think I just want to explore it on my own terms. Good. You still doing the 600 kilometer bike rides? Absolutely not. No, no, I need to do more exercise cause it's very good for helping and, um, you know, some really good ideas happen when you're, when you're cycling alone or with others, really.

So. Yeah, it's, it's, um, it's interesting, isn't it? The greatest [00:18:00] ideas. Often come in moments of silence. Yes. The idea that you can just work and work and work and just, um, that will just continue to produce results is, is, is not, not real really. So you do need to step away from the computer. I'm my own worst enemy, you know, I just think sitting there replying to more emails or, you know, doing more stuff will make me happier and more productive as Radiohead wants saying, but it doesn't, it doesn't work that way, does it?

And it's a. You know, when you're most busy, the best thing to do is probably step away from the computer. And actually my tutors at sixth form college in Bath, um, John and Bill, they talked about this idea of like pulling your head out of the drawing board. So we'd have a 44 or 5 degree drawing board and I'd sit there, you know, like drawing with tiny little pen and ink and so on.

And actually, and it's the same with CAD, you know, you zoom in, you zoom in past one to one, beyond, beyond, beyond. And actually the process of [00:19:00] removing you oneself and thinking in a kind of More holistic way or just doing something different for a bit is it's really important and I think yeah I could do it remembering that a lot as well.

Don't know if you're familiar with the Situation that Walt Disney found himself in when he was doing cartoons. Also, he started off doing cartoons He'd got to a certain stage just wasn't loving his work anymore finding it very difficult to meet the expectations of the investors Mm hmm, and so he just said right I'm done.

I'm off and I'm taking a If we want to have a better word, a sabbatical. So he went off with his kids, just had fun, traveled the world, did this, that, and the other. When he was out, he came up with the idea of the, uh, of the, um, of the theme park, Disneyland or Disney World. I've forgotten which one was first.

From there, obviously, you know, Disney is before he passed away, scaled to, to, to massive heights. And, um, there was an account told, um, some years ago when he opened up Epcot, which is in, uh, in Florida, [00:20:00] um, he'd passed away before Epcot had finished. Right. And someone had mentioned to his brother, Oh, it's a shame that, you know, your brother, Walt, isn't here to, to see this finished thing.

And he's like, no, you've got it all wrong. My brother saw it and that's why it's here. Right. Right, because he'd had the vision. He'd already had that vision. And I love that story because it, it, it reminds me that it's that separation from work that gives the inspiration for work that enables you to see things that aren't yet created.

But when you're working on them, all you're doing is you're working on something that you've already imagined in your mind. But to step away from that, first of all, to imagine something different, you need to come away from that work. Yeah, I agree and I think without that distance you can't resolve you can't resolve it basically, you know, just Phrase I use a lot is you know, well, you're not a robot.

So you can't expect 100 percent performance all the time, you know humans have ups and downs. So Okay, no worries. Let's come back tomorrow and [00:21:00] see what we can do then Not always easy So, you know, following what you're, what you're telling others to do, of course, um, but you know, it's right, you know, and then in one's rational mind that that is the right thing to do, isn't it?

Definitely. Do you have a number two? Do you have someone that you work closely with that? Has got a different skill set to what you have that holds things together in areas that you don't necessarily. Yeah, that's really interesting. Actually, I have a colleague who's an associate at Steven, who I've worked with for probably five or six years, a previous firm as well.

And he joined us about 18 months ago. Uh, and, and didn't leave, which is great. So the reason being he came on a contract just to kind of as a short term thing to help us out. Okay. Okay. Um, and then, you know, his, his value that he brings to us is extraordinary. So, um, he was promoted a couple of months ago and, um, yeah, uh, he's, he's very important to the business.

Yeah. He thinks [00:22:00] very differently to me. Yeah. Uh, but we do have a way of kind of, if you imagine a Venn diagram, maybe, you know, the, the bit where we overlap in the middle is, is quite helpful. And, and, and. I think the most important thing is we're both quite comfortable giving each other quite direct feedback.

And I think without that, without being able to have those difficult conversations, then it just wouldn't work. Um, I'm happy to be told I'm not doing the right thing. Um, and to get my head out of the drawing board as much as, you know, he is as well, hopefully. So we do disagree, but I do think that's, that's helpful.

It'd be awful if we all agreed on the same thing, wouldn't it? Be an echo chamber. I think so. I think the other thing that's awful as well is where someone cannot function unless someone just agrees with them all the time. Yeah, I mean that's like the Tech Bro founder kind of ideology isn't it? It's like, you know, I don't agree in the kind of Master visionary, uh, I have been known to have a couple of good ideas.

I've had quite a few bad ideas as well, but, um, [00:23:00] somewhere in between all of that, uh, as a team, we can produce something quite extraordinary. I think at times, um, yeah, he's a, he's a great member of the team. What's your, uh, um, what's your speciality into with your architect? Yeah, that's interesting. We've worked on so many different things.

Museums, galleries, um, visitor centers, lovely listed buildings in Oxford, private houses, extensions, retail, um, and everything between, you know, offices and so on. And we enjoy that broad kind of range. I think at the moment we're probably, on, on homes and that's kind of individuals, homes and dwellings and retrofits and so on, uh, and private dwellings of one off houses.

But also, uh, retail is quite interesting for us at the moment. And, um, yeah, I think it's a really, really interesting, don't like the word sector, but I don't know the way of describing it, but those [00:24:00] two sectors are probably our kind of core. Core focus at the moment. Having said that we're also designing and delivering a cricket club in Dulwich, which is a beautiful thing to be involved in.

Um, but I think as, as much as I want to just be able to do everything, uh, I'm led to believe you should, should specialize in a few things. Um, but everything is interesting and I, I do feel that everything. We can design anything that makes sense Not through arrogance, but if we don't have the skills ourselves We know where to find them and bring them in and we're good at talking to people and building that that network and and taking those things forward What what are your key principles of sustainable architecture?

Yeah, I mean, it's such a big thing, isn't it? It means a lot of things different people, but I think a very holistic Strategic level, it's leaving every building we touch better than when we found it, you know, and that's, uh, improving the thermal performance, getting rid of a gas boiler, the smallest thing to, [00:25:00] uh, you know, just not needing any energy to run it.

You know, we did a retrofit in Streatham, which was huge learning experience and dropped the energy bills by 70%. Fantastic, you know, uh, really rewarding to do that. And I think, The lessons that we've learned from those things can go everywhere else, you know, but it's, it's changing the, the, the conversation around that is changing all the time.

And what was I reading yesterday about the fact the idea of the fabric first approach might not work as a kind of core idea. We need to move on from that a bit. And actually that's been proved through a project we did in Winchester for a charity recently. Where we tried to upgrade all the envelope, but it didn't make any difference.

Really. It was more about upgrading the energy kit and some PVs on the roof. But you know, we, we'd worked with our consultant, Andy Long. He's absolutely brilliant to, to do the maths. Basically, here's the options. Here's how they stack. Here's your return. Here's the carbon that you kind of reduce out of that.

So it was interesting. It didn't provide the answer that we thought it was going to provide, but that's what I do, isn't it? I guess. [00:26:00] So the consultant, Andy Long, I guess he's a Yeah, he's an MEP consultant. Okay. Um, and sustainability. Yeah. Okay, cool. And so what would you say that the common challenges are of implementing these things with, within architecture specifically?

I mean, the cost to build anything at the moment is extraordinary. So, you know, we're up kind of 25, 30 percent on Um, pre COVID, aren't we? So people have very different ideas about what things can cost. And there's, there's no magic to that. Um, some people are willing to spend a bit more, obviously for those ideas.

But I mean, what's great is that most of our clients have some sort of knowledge about environmental improvements. Well, that's I desperately want an S or C pump or, and I think the energy bills thing of, uh, you know, recent has, has focused the mind, a lot of people. And I think people buying bigger properties will be asking how much it costs to run this place.

You know? Um, I think that really focuses the [00:27:00] mind. Um, and I think people do want to invest in their homes because people, a lot of people we speak to don't, don't want to move, you know, this, there's often a discussion about the kind of stick or twist thing. So. If I can improve this to this, I'll stay here for a very long time.

If not, I'll find something else. But obviously moving is very expensive. It is. Yeah, it is. And it's emotionally taxing as well. Yeah. Yeah. People, you know, we have places we enjoy and communities around them. And, you know, I love where we live in South London. Couldn't dream. I don't want to move from there at all.

But, um, so you see why people are very invested in where they live. How do you stay up to date with the changes in regulations and? It's, it's not easy is it? I mean we've just been doing a bit of work on the building safety act this morning on a flat that we're working on. But it's a, it's a full time job isn't it?

Just, just keeping up to date, keeping that knowledge. I think social media, the RBA. [00:28:00] Um, other colleagues, it's a, you know, there's a big WhatsApp group in, in London, lots of people asking lots of questions, lots of other architects, and there's about 350 people in that maybe, um, but it's a work in progress all the time.

I don't know what the answer is, but I think the main thing I think is being curious, isn't it? So what does that mean? Where does that go? And following that thread to finding out a bit more about that thing. Um, it scares me a lot, you know, not being up to date, keeping up to, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Not being up to date scares you.

Yeah. And also the regulatory framework that we're working in, you know, and the impacts on, uh, individuals through fire safety or Mm-Hmm. You know, or, or our own liability and what we, you know, what we're meant to be doing as, as, as, as good architects, you know? Talk to me about that WhatsApp group. That sounds fascinating.

300 people come together asking questions. Yeah. So it's, um, it's called Parag's WhatsApp group. So I think he's a, he's a coach and there's lots of [00:29:00] other people in there who ask different questions and there's also a, um, you know, uh, you know, I need somebody to help me with a window that's this, and it's got this old kind of.

Performance requirement. Oh, you must speak to such and such and and it's very much about community there's always someone who knows how to do it and you know, we like to contribute quite a lot to that community, so Please speak to our friends such and such he'll help you out or he or she will help you out but I think that's where personal recommendation and Uh, you know, just the idea of a network comes in, doesn't it?

Really? Is this an open group? Something that something you have to kind of know someone and then be invited. So it's a, it's a close group. Yeah, that's good. I like that. Um, talking, just going back to ADHD, just very briefly. Um, uh, how do you think that the workplace can be more supportive, uh, for people with ADHD?

Um, That's [00:30:00] interesting. I think my own personal experience of trying to deal with that previously was using headphones a lot to, to isolate and focus on tasks and not be distracted. Um, I'm aware that some, some employers won't allow people to have headphones, um, because they want people to be connected and so on.

Um, I think I'd probably look at it in a broader neurodiversity sense in that, and actually think about it as individuals. So. We're struggling quite a lot in the studio with some construction noise next to us. And I think, you know, most of us are quite, uh, sensitive to that. I'm not going to, I feel like I have some kind of, uh, orderly sense, audio sensory issues and so on, but it affects your mood and your, your wellbeing.

So I think adapting spaces or allowing flexibility. So, you know, can you go and work in a kind of isolation booth with just, you know, whale music on or whatever you want to do, or. Being [00:31:00] tolerant of the fact that headphones are fine if people want to cut in It's also fine to have background music on if people want that instead But I think it's very personal about how people want to work and and what enables them to be productive really And that can that can be Something as simple as, well, actually I get up really early in the morning.

My best hours are from eight until 10 after four. I'm useless. So cool. Shift your day. That's probably some core hours we need to overlap. Um, but I think it's just an individual thing, isn't it? Really being tolerant to that flexibility where, where you can accommodate it, um, where possible. And what about for people?

With ADHD, they know they've had ADHD. What advice would you give or what comments would you have for them in what sense? Just in the workplace, how they interact with colleagues, management. Yeah, it's difficult because I don't think I would have ever been this open about it had I been employed. Because I think there's a great deal of stigma around it still.[00:32:00] 

A great deal of misunderstanding as well because obviously, not obviously, unfortunately, but a lot of people Think of that as a young, aggressive child throwing a chair against the wall. Um, and that's not always the case. It can be, uh, it's all can be very prevalent in young women as well, but, um, masked and covered up and, and, and.

So, um, I'm not quite sure really it's, it's, it's personal. Everybody comes at it their own way. Some people might want to share it. Some people might just not say anything about it at all. It's interesting that you say that you wouldn't have brought it up if you were employed. I think I would have felt very different about talking about it, uh, and probably a bit more private about it.

Um, I don't know whether those people would have understood or welcomed that knowledge or who knows. It's a different that's a different Alternate universe there. And so what is it about being? Running your own company that [00:33:00] gives you more confidence in that area

The frameworks that I set for me are that exactly that, you know I can work as hard or as was not so You know, sometimes I'll work very long hours other days. I might decide not to, um, I think one of the best things for me or that helps me is, is having a physical office space to go to not, I can't work at home really.

Um, it just doesn't work for me. Um, so transitioning to another space through a short cycle ride is perfect for me. And that, that, that's great. And I have lots of nice books and things around me that, that make that feel very comfortable for me. Hmm. Yeah, I'm the same. I find that this similar during COVID.

I tried to work from home, just wasn't working, too many distractions, things that I wanted to get involved with instead of doing what I needed to. And I found that that [00:34:00] working in a separate place really useful, but then you mentioned about the commute. I also find that super useful. Is this separation between home and, and work is super important, I think.

Um, but you know, for others, not so much. Yeah. Yeah. I think I heard a while ago is that. Managers want everybody in the office, doers want to be at home because then they can focus. So, you know, there's clearly a conflict between those two, two ideas. But, um, uh, yeah. How do people work in your office? Are they all, so yeah, everybody is, um, everybody is required to come into the studio, but we only work four days a week.

So that's, that's the rub basically. So we work a four day a week, no loss in pay. Everybody has Friday off. And. That's it basically. So, you know, we work a 32 hour week. Previously I've worked 60, 80 hour weeks quite consistently throughout my career. Um, and it was a conscious choice to try and do something different as a, you know, as we started out and employed people, basically.[00:35:00] 

How do you find that? Hard. It's really hard. To cram everything into four days. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Um, are you as strict as, are you as good at keeping to the four day? No, of course not. As everyone else? Uh, yeah, yeah. And that's great. And that's, that's something that's really important. The way I look at it is that if I was doing five days as a company director, I'd probably do six.

So if I'm doing four and a bit, I'm still winning, really. Uh, I'm trying to be a bit better in terms of delegation and those kinds of things. But I do think it's important that we. Don't just accept the status quo, you know, setting up on your own is why, why do it the same as everybody else? What, what would be the point in that?

Um, so where did that idea come from then for four days? Um, previous business partner, it's his idea. I love working myself to death, so, you know, uh, I couldn't quite conceive of it working, but, um, we put a lot of effort into, into doing that. It takes a lot to organize and manage and make sure you don't have unnecessary meetings, communicate well, all [00:36:00] those kinds of things.

It puts a lot of pressure on people, but you know, an intense four days and a bank holiday every weekend is pretty good, really. What about from your client's point of view? Our clients are pretty good with it, actually. Um, there is a expectation if you're running a job, you might answer an email on a Friday, you know, if somebody needs a row color for site, or you've got an email that they need to see.

You know, you probably might need to do half an hour, 30 minutes, just check your email. But the general idea is that you're not there working and doing drawings or updating schedules and things. Um, but our clients are good with it. Yeah. And, and our clients actually, a lot of them are very supportive of it.

You know, we've had a lot of people saying, well, speaking to us, why aren't you doing this? You know, why aren't you changing your law firm to do this? And like, you know, um, so, but it, you know, it's some really interesting conversations come out of it as well. That's going to be my question is, have you managed to affect anyone else with that great idea too?

Working with not, not yet. No, I think, um, it's hard. I [00:37:00] mean, there is a lot of work to be done in architecture. It's not easy. So I think it's much easier to start, you know, and build the ship rather than have a big ship and turn it, you know? So I think we have spoken to quite a few people who will probably do a trial I think, or we'll look to that.

Um, but I think it's, yeah, it's a bit of a slower uptake amongst, amongst architects. I think it's quite unusual still, especially architects, if I can be as bold to say that. Have a good quality of design as well, maybe. So no compromise on any level, if that makes sense. What'd you mean by that? Um, I think it'd be very easy to have a fairly ordinary low aspiration and that's absolutely fine.

Um, practice and make that work. I think it's even harder if you want to. Compete at a level of, of high quality design. I hope that's a polite way of saying that. Definitely. One of the things that we do as an organization is we have [00:38:00] unlimited holiday. Interesting. Which is a phrase that most people use when I say that to them.

It's very popular in tech companies, isn't it? I don't, yes. I think, I think so. I think so. Um, based on trust to then take what you need. So the theory behind it, this is what I adopt. Is. When you're in school and you want to use the bathroom, you need to put your hand up because the teacher doesn't trust you to go to the toilet on your own because you're not going to get your work done.

When you leave school, you need to put your hand up still because there's only a certain amount of times you can go and get relief. So I'm joining the relief that you get when you need to use the bathroom. Yeah. And the relief that you need to get when you are going on holiday, because it's relief, right?

That's what you're after. And so what we're saying is when you're saying I need relief, then we're trusting that you need relief as opposed to saying, no, you can only get relief 28 days or 30 days or 33 days. If you're really lucky. Within [00:39:00] these parameters. Within this. Yeah. Yeah. That when you need relief, you put, you just say, look, this is what I need.

I'm gone. And you come back when, um, Obviously, it's agreed. You come back and if you need, you know, you just take it as in, as in when you need it on top of that. If one year you only need 28 days of relief, days holiday, and you're not thinking I've not lost anything because next year I can get as much.

Yeah. Yeah. Much relief if I need. Yeah. And it's the expectation that people it's just all about getting the work done. So the work gets done, take what time off you need. Yeah. I think that's smart. On top of that though, it's also I am connected to you because you work with me and what I am able to do connects to you and what I'm not able to do connects with you.

So I've got a responsibility for me and I've got also a [00:40:00] responsibility for you, but I like how that comes together and this is how I'm going to work. Yeah. How long have you been doing that for? We've been doing that for five years. Wow. Okay. And it's worked well. We've not once had, because most people say, Oh, what are you going to do if someone abuses it?

What are they going to take the whole year off? Well, when they understand that they're part of a team and they'd like the people that they work with and they like the jobs that they're working on, it's, you know, everyone's an adult, right? You know, when you need relief. Yeah. I mean, if somebody was abusing that, then they're not the right fit for your team.

Or something is wrong and that opens up a conversation to say what's wrong. How can I help? There's a different problem to be solved. Yeah. And so it's going back to, that's fine. It's all right. Sorry.

It's much better than it was. [00:41:00] Sorry. That's fine. That's fine. And so taking it in that approach, that's going back to looking at the person as an individual. As opposed to saying one size fits everybody. And you need to, you need to cram in this. Yeah. It's difficult, isn't it? Because you need certain things done to keep your business going and that, that sets basic parameters, but you need flexibility within that to accommodate everybody, everybody's different.

So, you know, how'd you have that loose fit, but there's still kind of a consistent thing that, that keeps your going. I think the connecting thread for me, I think the connecting thread for me is that. When you have a certain type of person working with you that understands what you're trying to achieve, why you're trying to achieve it, then they understand what needs to be done and they're working with you to get that stuff done.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you don't have that connection, then it's going to be difficult. Do you find that people don't take [00:42:00] enough holiday then? That is the biggest problem we have. Cause that's the same with a four day week because everybody. It's having a break every week and that's great. You're rested doing other things and being inspired by those kind of things or just going to the post office.

But then actually encouraging people to stay holiday on top of that is quite difficult, um, which is great. So that's, that's, I mean, that's a, that's a nice problem to have, isn't it? Because you're rested, but obviously if you do need to stay holiday. You know, you're not using as much each time to extend that along, are you?

What we do is we celebrate people's holidays. Absolutely. When they go on holiday, we are like, share pictures with us. Let us know how it's going. Yeah. We encourage people on there out of office, say, not to be apologetic, just like statement of fact, I'm off to here. Even say where you're going if you want.

We've also, um, uh, had a few instances where people live abroad and they've gone on holiday, Or actually live in the UK. It's the same, actually. Um, so they've gone on holiday and they've been [00:43:00] on holiday for a week or two weeks, and then they've worked from the same place that they're on holiday for a week.

And then they've traveled somewhere else and they'll work there. Yeah. That's, that's the way that we, We've, we've applied that same thing as well, which I'm presumably reducing staff turnover and keeping a happier, tighter team. Very much so. Good. Yeah, very much so. So it's been fine, but I think that you're going on with what you're talking about with reference to just looking at the whole person, looking at the neurodiversity, I think is, uh, is, is really benefited, um, us by taking that approach, enabling people to.

Fit their life in and around their passion. Yeah, I think I think when you're younger It's very easy to see the world in a very very rigid set of kind of boundaries that you see And obviously as you become older and more experiences It's very clear that everybody sees the world for a very different lens And they say and we're all bumping into each other and banging into each other through those kind of [00:44:00] misunderstandings you certainly so Um, especially when you realize like your uncle, I think you said you when you're halfway there.

Yeah, well done. It's from Yorkshire. So it's like halfway through them. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, really, really cut through it all. Yeah. Well, Andy, I think now we're in a position where we can go to the demolition zone. Talk about a myth, and we'll debunk it. Lovely. Ready?

So you have built this, uh, for those people that are listening and not watching, a row of blue blocks. Mm hmm. And what does that represent? Uh, barrier to entry to the, um, architecture or broader construction profession, and the blue was the colors of my school. It's a little bit dark, but it'll do for now.

Are you saying that your school blocked your entrance into architecture? So I don't, I mean, it's, there's a bigger issue in terms of, I don't think people really understand what architecture and construction is really. [00:45:00] I mean, obviously we know, we see people, people building stuff. Um, you know, it's not Tom Selleck in Three Minute Little Baby and so on.

People maybe have different cultural references, but. I mean, when I was at school, you had the red national record of achievement book, which everybody's thought would be more important in their life than it actually is. But there's this myth, you know, so when I would talk to people, I'd say, Oh, you know, I really want to be an architect.

And they'd say, Oh, you need maths, physics. We have to be really good at those, not use them that much. You know, I was not very good at maths at school, you know, but actually physics, I really enjoyed, but, um, what they should have said was architecture is an incredibly broad profession and you could do maths, physics, computing, art.

You know, you can be a lawyer, you can look at law, contract law, technical. There's so many different parts of the industry that, um, It's just bullshit, you know, and, and the idea that you, you, you need to have maths and physics to do was essentially a classic degree, you know, architecture is a brilliant degree, even if you don't want to [00:46:00] study architecture, I think.

Um, beyond there, but I just think it's gatekeeping at the worst point in time when you're, when you're 15, 16, unsure about what you might want to do. Um, for somebody to say, well, you're not very good at maths or physics. So don't, don't even think about that. And I dread to think the amount of people that have been stopped, stopped by some of those comments.

So, and I hope it doesn't really happen at schools anymore, but, um, who knows? Have you ever heard that one at all? I have. Yes. Yeah. It's bollocks, you know? Um, yeah, it's so broad. So, just to clear this up, what one message would you have for a 15 year old dessert school that has just been told that by their teacher this week?

Tell them they're wrong, and tell them I'll come and talk to them. Um, it's just simply not true. Um, you know, there's so many different ways of engaging with the profession. Um, apprenticeships, working with contractors, engineering, the [00:47:00] whole STEM thing is feeding all the skills it needs to go into.

Computing is a massive part of it. You love computers, you love 3d buildings, you love Minecraft. Boy, have I got a job for you, you know? So, um, it's so, so wonderfully broad and I wish people could see that at the outset, but it's presented in the most narrowest of terms in the, in the, this kind of individual star person who runs a practice, uh, and it's so much broader than that.

Love that. When you're ready, you can take it down. That's awesome. With a roll of a brick. It separates. That was destroyed. Love that. Good. Good. So I have got five questions for you to end. Quick fire questions. So what's your favorite sustainable building design? I would say something that doesn't need to look sustainable.

So a lot of, a lot of buildings previously used to look like [00:48:00] it's sustainable. It's a mud hut, it's car tires, whatever. It's the building that just looks like an absolutely brilliant building. It just happens to be sustainable. Uh, standing desk or sitting desk, which helps you focus better? Should use a standing desk.

I like my sitting desk. What's one app that you cannot live without as an architect? Oh, Instagram. What do you say no to now that last year you would have said yes to? Interesting. Um, a few opportunities and clients, I think. What's the most rewarding part of being an architect with ADHD?

Getting shit done, building buildings, seeing, seeing, um, seeing clients be happy at the end of it, really. It's a bit of a journey. And it's been great having you on the podcast. Thank you very much. I appreciate your time and your honesty. And, uh, thank you. Thanks for having me.