Kerri-Emma Dobson: 0:00

I'm the Group Sustainability Proposition Manager at BSI. I work across all sectors, but built environment is one of my key sectors.

Darren Evans : 0:06

What was it like then back in 2013, coming in your female, male-dominated environment construction company?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 0:12

Um, quite intimidating. Whilst we might have had the wettest summer over here so far, are we storing the water that we need? Fake it till you make it, which some people frown upon, but I swear by it for building your confidence. There's need. Fake it till you make it, which some people frown upon, but I swear by it for building your confidence. There's always a knock-on effect of the sustainability decisions that we make. I would like all governments around the world to take positive action to actually combat the climate crisis so what was it like then back in 2013?

Darren Evans : 0:41

coming in, you're female, male dominated environment construction company.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 0:46

Quite intimidating but I do like. My first interview was with like a panel of six men and just me and obviously I'm, like you know, 23 years old, fresh out of university. You know I'd obviously done interviews before, having worked in call centres and things like that while I was at uni, but I'd never done something that was like is going to be my career.

Darren Evans : 1:07

So yeah, it was quite intimidating so was that because the stakes were higher, because there were six people?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 1:12

stakes were higher and six people for, like a graduate entry level role. Looking back on it, I'm like because I've now, you know, gone on and hired graduates and mental graduates and stuff and I thought, wow, that is overkill.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 1:21

Looking back on it, because even even if you had a mixed gender or maybe, you know, just a completely mixed panel yeah sitting in front of six people it was quite intimidating, but I got in that way and spent the first couple of months like going around sites in pp that didn't fit, you know, hard hats, like falling down my face, like drowning in the in the high viz and things like that. It was um, it was a lot, and I didn't drive at the time as well, and there were sites all over the country so I was getting trains all over the place.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 1:49

Um carrying your ppe yeah, um, and you know my laptop and all this kind of stuff.

Darren Evans : 1:54

You know it was a lot and how did that feel for you, as you were walking around in your 20s with all that stuff?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 2:00

it was funny when I would first turn up on site. Nine times out of ten I'd be the only woman there and you know I'd come walking in like probably from a taxi I've had to get a taxi from the train station or something and, um, they wouldn't realize that I was, you know, gonna be like working there or whatever. And you know I must have looked back then so young you know and they were like what's she doing here, kind of thing. Um, so yeah, it was a bit scary at first but you got used to it. Um, it, you know, varied from site to site, contractor to contractor, um, but it was just unusual, but it was once.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 2:33

I sort of got in there. I had to really like build up my confidence quite quickly, um, and in doing that I think I sort of earned respect of my colleagues on the site. But I did get called like young lady quite a lot. Um, you know, there wasn't. There was a always a female toilet on like in the cabins on site, but it was often just used as storage, so I couldn't even get in there. Um, so yeah, and then you have to ask people can someone please clear out the toilet so I can use the toilet one site all day, that kind of thing. Um, so yeah, at first it was really daunting, but it does. You do sort of grow your confidence quite quickly because you have to, or back then you did when you spoke about earning your colleagues respect.

Darren Evans : 3:10

What did that look like for you and how do you? How did you do that? I think?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 3:13

initially. So I was going to sites to help with things like site waste management plans.

Darren Evans : 3:17

If they were doing um, like a bream certification or something else, helping them get all their evidence together, that kind of thing but back then no one was really interested in bream yeah and site waste management plans were a pain in the backside yeah, that's yeah, that's sort of how they saw it um and were you the girl or the person just to be avoided because you're uh?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 3:35

yeah, potentially um, but obviously I had a job to do going there to make sure these things, you know, the right evidence was gathered, the right documents are filled out, that kind of thing and and the right things were happening on site. That needed to be, you know, the waste was being sorted properly, you know, so on and so forth, and I had a job to do. So I just went there and did it and if it wasn't being done how it needed to be done, I had to speak up and I did, and I think that really helped grow my confidence, which ultimately has helped me grow my career.

Darren Evans : 3:59

Yeah, what did speaking up look like for?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 4:02

you Having to say, you know, if they were sort of huffing and puffing or oh, it's just a tick box exercise, you know that kind of thing Trying to first explain to them why it actually is important and why they need to be doing this, not just from a sort of regulatory perspective, but also for the benefit of the site and the reputation that they will have as a company and how it looks to people going past and things like that. You know we need to be doing these things. So it was just trying to explain those things and and getting them on board. And also, you know, saying I'm here to help you. I come to these sites to help make sure you know the right paperwork's in order and the right things are happening. So, you know, utilize me while I'm here, talk to me about the challenges you're having and we'll find solutions to make sure you're doing the right thing. And yeah, I think they were like oh, okay, like you know, not here to sort of tick a box or, you know, crack the whip, necessarily, but actually to try and help them, you know, achieve a more sustainable site. Um, yeah, and you know, we got there, did that for sort of six months.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 4:57

I was on site and stuff until there was a unfortunately for the where I was working at the time, there was a round of redundancies and it was, you know um, last in, first out. A whole load of us went. So after doing you know all those interviews and going through and learning so much, so quickly, I was then back to applying to roles and that's how I then went into consultancy. Um, I went to Green Gauge Environmental as a graduate consultant to begin with and I learned so much there. I owe a lot of my career to my time at Green Gauge working on BREEAM assessments and social sustainability statements and socioeconomic studies, things like that. It was brilliant. A really broad look at sustainability across loads of different projects could be doing anything you know, from housing to multi-use sites like communities, looking at actual like master planning and things like that. So, yeah, I got really stuck in there and that's where I learned a lot. You know more about what goes on in the consultancy side and you think you'll always stay in the consultancy side well, no.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 5:59

So then I I, you know I did end up moving to bre eventually, um, so I worked on helping to write some of the BREAM schemes BREAM 2018 was one that I worked on, so, yeah, so I moved sort of more into that sort of like technical standard side of things, and it was actually while I was at BREAM that I really started moving more into the sort of marketing storytelling side of sustainability in the built environment. Bre had a marketing department. Obviously it still does, um, but there's what I always found at consultancies that I worked with.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 6:31

And again at BRE, you had the marketing team and then the technical sustainability people and there was sort of a lack of not lack of collaboration, but maybe a bit of misunderstanding between the two of them, because marketing obviously wants to tell a really compelling story. The technical sustainability people were maybe more interested in that really techie detail and you need to try and find that like happy medium. So you're telling the important story of the sustainability work, but also not running the risk of greenwashing and making sure you know it's factually correct and you're not overstating or understating the claims. And that's sort of where I was able to sit in the middle because I had the technical sustainability background, but I also had this sort of interest in and sort of educational background in that sort of marketing communications media, that kind of thing. So I was able to bridge the gap between the two teams and help them work better together and that's how I've moved into what I do now.

Darren Evans : 7:20

And what is it you do now?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 7:21

So I'm the Group Sustainability Proposition Manager at BSI.

Darren Evans : 7:26

So I'm not A long title.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 7:27

It is a long title we do love a long title at BSI but, yeah, I'm not specifically focused on built environment anymore. In my role, I work across all sectors, but built environment is one of my key sectors and, given that my background is in that you know I've been working in built environment for 10 years that I do find myself naturally leaning towards it. Whenever I'm trying to give examples to the other sector teams of you know how we can tell these sustainability stories and the benefit of doing that. I always refer back to built environment. So, yeah, so that's what I do now. I work on the any sort of sustainability content, storytelling, partnerships, um assets that go out from BSI at a group level. So, across all our different services, all our different sectors, all our different regions, I try and look after all of that Big job.

Darren Evans : 8:16

Have you got a team that you work with?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 8:17

So I sit within the brand proposition team, which currently sits under the PR team. So I work very closely with head of PR and the brand proposition heads of for digital trust, which is one of our other key strategic themes, and health, safety and well-being. So, and we do find that a lot of the sort of campaigns and the information that we are putting out, the stories that we're telling, do cross over, because obviously there's a social element to sustainability as well which ties in really nicely with health, safety, well-being, and there's also a lot of um progress being made with how ai can support sustainability initiatives in the built environment, but also in in other sectors as well. So we try to collaborate as much as possible to you know, tell those consistent stories and show the links between working and progressing in these areas what is?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 9:03

it makes a good story what is it that makes a good story? I think it's definitely good to have an emotional element to try and tap into what people genuinely care about. Um, obviously you need a compelling narrative. I think it's. You can always go back to the basics of um. You know what was the challenge, what was the solution, what was the outcome of that, but really sort of tying that back to what it genuinely means to people. So you know, at BSI we're ultimately there to try and drive positive impact for society as a whole.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 9:34

So in sustainability, you could look at that and think, specifically environmental sustainability. But it's more than that. It's also about, you know, organisations being profitable or, if they're profit for purpose, being able to make the money that they need to invest back into the work that they do, like we do at BSI and also making sure that they're able to have back to like the sort of three main elements of sustainability being that economic, social, environment and showing how they can all complement each other. And the benefits of that can be felt by your organization but also the people that you're impacting in your, in what you do as an organization. So with the built environment, you know you could look at it like, oh, we're creating an asset or we're retrofitting an asset and you do the job and the job is done, but in reality, the assets, the buildings, the infrastructure that we're creating today be that retrofit, new build, you know, whatever what we're creating today will be the buildings and the infrastructure that we are using in the future and also future generations.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 10:44

So if you can look at it from an environmental, social and economic perspective and try and balance those three out and look at how you can drive a positive impact in each, you're going to create a built environment that's going to last and serve people for the future. And I think, if you can sort of define your purpose as an organization, embed that in how you operate but also in the outputs that you produce. So in the built environment, the places that you create, your job doesn't just stop when that asset is built or refurbed, like what you've done is going to impact people for the future. So believe that, understand your purpose, live and breathe it in what you do and what you create for people and then tell those stories and I think people will be much more engaged with with what the built environment can do for our future.

Darren Evans : 11:31

I speak with um, not just my clients, but lots of people similar to you as well. Uh, being here on the, on the podcast, and lots of people say the same thing, which is, I would love to produce a building that is really sustainable, or refurb a building really, really sustainably, but the end client doesn't get it and they're not interested and they're driving me to do the opposite right what advice would you give to someone that is struggling in that area to make that story more compelling, more emotional, more to improve that story?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 12:16

the purpose element and really understanding your purpose as an organization. So I think if I was in myself a built environment organization, I would try to think about why am I doing what I'm doing?

Darren Evans : 12:34

first of all, so start off, so give an example then. So you're a, you're a contractor, yeah, so you're a contractor, um, and you want to build or have more projects that are sustainable, because that's what the board says, or that's what your shareholders have said, or that's what you want to do yourself, but you're struggling to really get your story straight. What advice would you give?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 12:59

I would say talk about the long-term impact that those buildings that you've created that are more sustainable are going to have, not only for your organization, but for the society in which they serve. I mean, there is evidence out there that buildings with certain sustainability accreditations are more profitable in terms of sale and rental values and things like that. So there's a money element there so you can use that to talk about. Look, this building is not only going to be cheaper to run and it's got this, you know, this green badge of approval, um, it's actually going to make you more money in the long run as well. But also think about the people that are going to be using that building work, live, play, you know whatever it is. They're going to be using it for um and how the decisions that you make in its design, construction, etc. How that's going to impact their lives going forward.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 13:48

And that's where I come back to the purpose of your.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 13:50

My purpose as an organization is to create not just to create assets, but assets, but to create spaces, places, communities, that kind of thing that will come through in everything that I do and create that better asset. And then that's the story, to tell that it's actually really going to make a difference for the people that live and work and and interact with this building. It's going to make you more money, people are going to enjoy it more. It's going to last longer, it's going to be cheaper to run, like it's a no-brainer for me and, like I said, it's that comes back to that thing of what we're creating now will be there in the future, and so why would we not want to create something that is going to be cheaper and more, you know, energy efficient to run, that people are going to enjoy more, that is going to be resilient to the changing climate and things like that? It you don't want to waste your money on something that then is going to flood in 10 years time or, you know, even 50 years time.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 14:47

It it makes economic sense and it makes societal sense to create these better assets, and I think it's that's the story so it sounds like, from what you're saying, the starting point would be to reflect on culture yeah, yeah and if and again, if you're, if, if you understand your purpose and embed that in all that you do, it won't just happen within your organization, you'll be able to show that culture like, live and breathe it to the people that are buying your buildings, renting your buildings, you know, partnering with you, that kind of thing, and I think that that's the story to tell Like we believe in this and look at all the benefit that it's going to bring, and there is evidence out there to back it up. You know it's not just like a greenwashing claim. You know the evidence is there. Use it to tell the story to back up what you're saying and I think people will buy into it more.

Darren Evans : 15:33

One of the things that I have observed just in in general business and and things outside of the construction industry or what may be deemed as sustainability, is there have been significant changes, so I'll give you an example of the the blackberry, the old blackberry yeah, I used to have one of those yeah, I mean, you know, there it feels like it's a bit archaic now because of what we've got now but the jump from what we had before. I remember having this nokia yeah, I even had the old matrix flip phone.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 16:05

Yeah, I thought I was the coolest thing oh yeah in the world when I had that one, the motor roller, and you could change the aerial. It would flush. That's exactly right. It was great. But there was this huge shift, wasn't there?

Darren Evans : 16:16

yeah, to the blackberry and an even bigger jump to the iphone smartphones.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 16:21

Yeah, it's now deemed as the smartphone, but the the real pioneers in that area were apple yeah, they are a good example of telling that sort of that compelling narrative, right, so a phone was a phone to make calls on functional yeah that that's what it did, and then it became a smartphone and they don't just say, oh, this is a phone that you can go on the internet or you can access your emails or whatever they.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 16:43

They've told a story that it is literally like access to information at your fingertips. You know directions, you're lost your phone, you need, you need to call someone obviously your phone, but you know, you want to find out about that actor that you've just seen in that movie and now you can't remember where he's come from. It's all there at the tip of your fingers. They've sold it as like an extension of your arm, effectively, and that makes it Now we don't just see them as phones, we see them as a fundamental part of our lives, and I think it's because they didn't just talk about that. I use this thing in marketing, called like the FAB method, so you don't FAB.

Darren Evans : 17:20

F-A-B.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 17:21

Yeah, so define the feature. So, with the iPhone okay, you've got any smartphone, other providers are available. So, with your phone you've got. The feature is it has access to the internet. And then the A is advantage. What's the advantage of that? Well, you can go on the internet whenever you want. But then what's the actual benefit? What does it really mean? And the benefit would be you know, access to a world of information at your fingertips and that's the line that you use in your story Not, it has access to the internet, great, you can get information when you need it. It's that benefit bit.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 18:01

So if the building is like um, I don't know, like you know, it's extremely energy efficient. We just got the best epc ever and bream's giving it a gold star, gold star, outstanding stars, or you know whatever um it's like, okay, so the feature is um, extremely energy efficient. The advantage of that is going to use less energy. The benefit of that is going to cost you less to run this building and it's going to produce less emissions. So if your organization has a sustainability strategy to reach net zero by 2050 in line with the paris agreement, this is this living in this, living in this building, working in this building is going to help you do that, so that it's that b, that benefit. Use that in your story rather than the feature or the advantage. Think about what it actually means to people and that brings it back to that emotional element so is that method or that fab application that you're talking about?

Darren Evans : 18:51

is that applicable if you're an architect as well as if you're a developer?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 18:56

and yeah, I mean, I think you can. You can do it with anything you can do with a, any. You can give a pen, like you know the feature of the pen it writes. Why is that advantageous? Well, sometimes I need to write things down, so that's great. And then what's the benefit? Like all of your thoughts can be penned onto paper, so you'll never forget a thing and enjoy the flow of our wall tip, pen or whatever you know, it's.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 19:14

You've got to think about it in stages because it helps your mind go to that creative element of what it actually means to me to own this pen.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 19:21

So, and you know, an architect can do it, m&e engineers who are, you know, putting in I don't know ground source, heat pumps or whatever it is that they're doing.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 19:28

There's always a story there to be told. But I think if you can relate it back to your organizational purpose, that helps demonstrate that that story is also genuine, that it's not just something that you're doing because you have to, it's something that you're doing because it is embedded within your organization to operate in a certain way. And you know we've done research in the last year at BSI that shows that consumers are more likely to like abandon an organization or a product if they act inconsistently with their purpose. So if you can really you know sort of do the the deep work like understand yourself as an organization and what your purpose means to you, live and breathe it in how you operate and your outputs as well, and then put that into your story, thinking about that, those benefits that you bring that actually matter to people, and I think you're going to have a much more compelling story that people can buy into.

Darren Evans : 20:25

I can hear the people listening to the podcast say yes, I've got my own business, I'm inspired by that, I'm going to run with it. But I can also hear a group of people that are employed and that feel that they don't have a loud enough voice or a big enough impact within their organisation. What advice would you give to those people?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 20:43

What?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 20:43

For their own storytelling or to improve their organisation's storytelling? Both Bit of both. So I think, for organisations that really want to embed that culture, and not only for their sort of commercial benefit but also for the people that operate within them, there are standards available that can help guide that so that you can learn from other organizations. You can actually demonstrate that you're not just saying, oh, our purpose is X, y, z. It guides you through how to really prove that. So, again, not greenwashing that story, you're actually demonstrating that you have thought about your purpose and have embedded it within your organization. So, from an organization standpoint, if you want to build that culture, I would say look at the standards and the guidance that are available, learn from other organizations that are really living and breathing their purpose. And I think it's a really beneficial thing to do because your employees and your team members will buy into that story as well and they'll naturally be telling it when they're talking about your organization.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 21:44

Um, I think, for people within their organization, if you feel like your organization is somewhat lacking purpose or you don't understand your organization's purpose, you know what's to stop you from starting an, an internal group, to explore that together.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 21:58

What, what does your organisation mean to you? What would you like to see coming from the top down as well, and start a sort of engagement and collaborative group to explore that and get your senior leaders involved as well and your other stakeholders. Speak to your clients, find out what they think of you and what they understand of your purpose and you could start it from the ground up. That would be really authentic, you know, and a lovely thing to see. But I would definitely recommend looking at the guidance that's out there, because it's the same as when you try and do some work on yourself and you try and think you know who am I, what do I want to be that kind of thing. You have to dig a bit deep and I think you know organisations be. And I think you know organisations, be it in the built environment or any sector, have such an opportunity to impact society. You know why would you not want to do that in a positive way? And all of that can start from understanding your purpose.

Darren Evans : 22:51

What do?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 22:53

you love about working for BSA. I love that. It is a profit for purpose organisation. So was BRE. I'm for that. I love that.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 23:02

I love the like, the credibility that comes with working for an organization. You know we're underpinned by a royal charter. We work in so many sectors all over the world. You know a really trusted organization. So I have pride working at BSI knowing that we genuinely are trying to do the right thing and help our stakeholders, our clients, our partners also have a positive impact. So it means a lot to me for work for an organisation that practices what it preaches. We have a very ambitious sustainability strategy to reach net zero in our own operations by 2030 for scope one and two. So I'm very proud of all of those elements. I love my team. We've got a great bunch of people working for us. We've got so many experts in all different sectors, all different fields like just at your fingertips. We have really engaging conversations where we're not just thinking about the here and now or, in my case, sustainability, that's sort of 2050 mark we're thinking of what comes next from there. We're always sort of trying to push forward and I really enjoy that.

Darren Evans : 23:58

It's challenging, it keeps you on your toes, but no, two days are ever the same what is it that you do to keep the connection between the marketing and storytelling and that technical element, because I know that BSI have a lot of technical people yes, that go into a lot of detail. They're really passionate about that yeah, absolutely so.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 24:18

I mean we have lots of different um like divisions at bsi. So obviously with the national standards body um for the uk, we also have training, certification, assurance, consultancy. You know there's all different types of things going on and you'll have different experts for sustainability, digital trust, health safety, well-being, that sort of specialize, be it in standards, training, etc. So there's a lot of stakeholders involved across the organization in all different countries, like you know, different regions around the world um. So it can be hard to find a time to have a call that suits everybody and have those discussions um. But I think what I try and do is I have my main sort of sector contacts so for built environment, healthcare and pharma, food and retail that I work with on a pretty much daily basis and whenever we're coming up to tell a new story, we just really invite collaboration.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 25:09

So if that means that you're going to have a 6am call like you know our time, because then other people can join from other parts of the world, we're doing it. We'll also do an evening one to make sure they can join from other parts of the world. We're doing it. We'll also do an evening one to make sure they can join. We'll do on smack bang in the middle of the day. If people just want to join with their lunch, they can hear what's going on. We always try and have the most collaborative approach to really pull in those expertise um from the different divisions and the different type of work that they're doing, but from around the world as well, because it will always give you a different perspective. It's different in my case, obviously, it's sustainability different sustainability challenges in different regions. So it's important to make sure we touch base with all of those what collaboration do you do with universities and places of education?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 25:48

universities and places of education, so we offer a lot of different training courses. I believe some of those are available to universities. We also have people come in to work at bsi on apprenticeships and graduate schemes and things like that. So I think what's good at bsi is there's sort of a constant encouragement of learning and upskilling, be that through mentoring or courses that we have available all the time through bsi or, if you want to, you know, speak in your pdr about doing something externally as well. So people that come to us directly from university, your learning hasn't stopped there. You will continue learning and growing with us. And yeah, I believe we do have various different apprenticeships and graduate schemes available across the organisation.

Darren Evans : 26:32

I think now we're in a position where we can go to the demolition zone.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 26:36

Okay.

Darren Evans : 26:40

Kerry, emma, you have built this um fantastic thing modest it's. I'm just conscious of the people that are listening to this and they can't see it, and I don't even think I can describe it really. It's, it's um, it's good. It reminds me of, um, the construction at Petra in Jordan oh, okay, yeah so that's what it reminds me of. I've been there once before and it's grand. It's great. What does it represent?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 27:09

It represents the myth that sustainability in the built environment is just a tick box exercise, because I don't believe that to be true.

Darren Evans : 27:20

Where does that show up?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 27:22

What in my tower?

Darren Evans : 27:24

No, where does that myth show up?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 27:27

I would say I first came across it working on site and the guys on site maybe not necessarily understanding why they had to do certain things. You know, like we spoke about earlier, that the site waste management plans were a pain or so on and so forth, and I think it goes back to not understanding that sort of ripple effect of the actions that you take to be more sustainable right from the construction phase all the way through. So you know, if you're um using less water on site, obviously that's great. You're not contributing to the water security issue and you might think you know that that's not a big deal. But, like we said, you know water security is actually going to be a really big challenge coming forward. So it does have excuse the pun a ripple effect, like a knock-on effect. If every construction site can use less water, then we have more water available for the rest of society. Um, if you build a more energy efficient building, like we spoke about earlier, it's going to be cheaper to run, it's going to have less carbon emissions, which is going to support the occupiers sustainability strategy if they're working towards net zero, if you incorporate a green roof, you might think you know why are we having to plant these specific species at all. We didn't water them, they're dead already or something. But if you actually, you know, take care of a of a green roof, you, um, are contributing to uh, the ecological value of the site.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 28:46

Speak other, you know wildlife species may come there. You'll get bees. You know you'll get birds coming there. But also the people that use the building have somewhere nice to go on their lunch break, which improves their well-being. So it's always a knock-on effect of the sustainability decisions that we make, um, in designing construction. And then you know the ultimate operation of a building. And so, whilst you may well check a box, if you're going for a certification standard, you know you may tick it and say, yes, we have achieved that, that point for that scheme. That's great, but there's also going to be a long-lasting effect of the decisions that you make. So, you know, tick your boxes. Good, because there will be a ripple effect from that. Good, I love that.

Darren Evans : 29:27

I love that, and I I totally agree with the concept that you're talking about. There is that every action has a reaction, and so whatever it is that you're doing to improve, be that green roof you touched on one of them.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 29:41

I think the other one as well that I find really interesting is that it prevents that urban heat island effect is just that simple thing of the of having foliage around absolutely and also you know if you're, if you're placemaking, if you're actually developing, you know a whole community um, the more green space that you have, it's a it's a nicer place for people to be. That's always gonna um draw people in wanting to rent there, buy homes there. You know things like that. It's important to have green space, so the knock-on effect of that is huge what do you know about biophilia?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 30:16

yeah, so biophilia, designing the inside spaces to feel like you're at one and at working with nature and experiencing nature um, my cousin is actually a print designer. She designs interiors and wallpapers and things like that and her whole ethos is about bringing the outside in. So she hand draws um different plants, different wildlife species, things like that, into big wall murals that go up in commercial developments and it's beautiful and I think it is really important.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 30:44

You know we spend a lot of time indoors. Obviously, after covid, that may be working from home indoors or a mixture of hybrid things like that, but you know we spend a lot of time indoors and it's important to keep that connection with nature. And I think um biophilic design is brilliant, whether that's in your interiors or if you're incorporating internal green walls, you know, using more um natural materials like wood and things like that. I think, yeah, it's great, love it.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 31:12

My whole house looks like a jungle, so and it's got a lot of my cousin's wallpaper up as well, so big fan love that good.

Darren Evans : 31:20

Well, I think we're now at a place where you can just destroy that myth thanks, I'm gonna.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 31:24

I'm to tick the boxes first. There we go, and then there's the ring.

Darren Evans : 31:31

So yay, I love that. That is great. That is great Good. I'm wondering now if you could just help me understand what you would do if you had a magic wand and you could do one thing with that magic wand or get anyone to do anything. What would you use that magic wand for?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 31:52

Can I say that I would get the national lottery numbers?

Darren Evans : 31:55

That's what you'd do. No, I'm only joking. Would you wait for a rollover week?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 32:01

Yeah, probably a rollover week. Yeah, probably probably no. I think, um, I would like all governments around the world to take positive action to actually combat the climate crisis. I think it's the biggest threat that we are facing as a society and we need to work together to overcome it. And I think, whilst going to cop and attending cop and things like that is great we need to see the action in every single country. So I would wave the magic wand to get them all on board with reaching net zero by 2050, because, again, the knock-on effects of that will not only be, um, mitigating the impacts of climate change, but also will help many other areas of sustainability in terms of our. You know the social benefit, the economic benefit from new industries coming forward and you know new ways of producing energy, but also other areas such, you know, wildlife, habitats and water availability, all sorts of things. So I would wave that magic wand and have every country taking positive action towards net zero.

Darren Evans : 33:06

Have you been to COP?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 33:07

I haven't been personally. Bsi does go every year and we will be there again this year.

Darren Evans : 33:12

So what benefit is COP?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 33:15

I think, bringing net zero to the public forefront. Obviously it gets a lot of press and media coverage, so that's great. It gets people talking about it, bringing world leaders together to have those discussions. What we need to see is, you know, the action afterwards actually taking place. So I think there's always value in encouraging collaboration and a dialogue as to how we can get there. We just need to see those actions happening next.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 33:42

But again, you know, yes, we need governments to buy in and do what they say they're going to do, but organizations have a big role in that as well and it's a lot for organizations to take on, especially with, you know, sort of smes trying to achieve net zero.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 33:54

It's challenging, um, but it's not impossible and there are organizations out there who can help. There are tools available that can help. You know that, and it's not all just about spending money. You know, to get these tools, you know you can collaborate with organisations that are trying to drive this forward or use other resources that are available, such as the ISO net zero guidelines that BSI worked on. We brought together thousands of experts from all over the world and launched them. I think it was at last COP maybe it was the one before from all over the world and launched them. I think it was at last cop, maybe it was the one before um, but that's like providing a common framework to sort of help make sense of that somewhat fragment, fragmented like policy landscape, all in one place, step by step, of what you can do. That's available to everybody.

Darren Evans : 34:37

So yeah, how does someone get hold of that?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 34:40

um. You can find it for our website or through iso and how does that actually work?

Darren Evans : 34:45

is it simple for someone just to go through that? Someone's got no experience in this area at all, or do you need to engage with a specialist after looking?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 34:53

no, I think they've created it so that all different organizations you know, people working within them, wherever you are on your maturity journey can pick it up and, okay, we might have already done this bit, so we'll start from here, or no? We're starting right at the beginning, or actually we're quite advanced, but we want to go further. Anyone can use it, um, and if it's something that people are interested in and want to know more about, they can get in touch with the iso team and bsi facilitating those conversations to understand how they can really put it into practice. We have a new sort of case study brochure coming out soon that demonstrates some of the organizations that have used it and what their experience was. So that's definitely something to look out for to understand how to actually put it all into practice.

Darren Evans : 35:35

Good, I just want to go through a couple of quick fire questions.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 35:40

Okay.

Darren Evans : 35:42

If you're up for it, share an instance where a creative problem-solving led to a more sustainable outcome in your project.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 35:51

Okay, I remember many years ago when I was working in consultancy, working on a mixed-use development going up, so apartments, shops on the bottom, green space, et cetera, et cetera, and we used to do the sort of socioeconomic assessments to calculate on average how many children we thought would be living based on the tenure of how many bedrooms in each apartment, that kind of thing, and you get like there might be 105.6 children or something when you've done the calculation of varying different age groups and how close they would be to that green space.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 36:29

Um, some of them it was going to be too far, based on their, on their age. So, um, we had to look at how we could incorporate green space into this mixed use tower block so that those younger children would still be able to access green space if they can't walk as far to the park. Um, we put it to the developer in question and actually ended up taking out a couple of apartments to create a sort of internal well, somewhat internal, you know like green space that families could go and enjoy in that um apartment block and um, the developer credit to them was all for it, despite them losing a couple of apartments there, you know, they saw the value in actually creating a space that everyone could access and yeah, that was great. But we were looking at it like where are we going to put it? You know, you had to be um, like on a certain side so that would get enough light, and all this kind of thing.

Darren Evans : 37:14

And yeah, it was great what advice would you give for someone just finishing university interested in a career in sustainability?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 37:22

um volunteer where you can appreciate that's not something that's accessible to everyone, if they have to work another job, you know, while they're trying to get into their career. But if you can try and volunteer to get some work experience um with different, I mean you can look at like different charities even depending on which sort of area of sustainability that you want to get into um, but just I would say, apply it anything and everything that is related to sustainability, because I didn't necessarily think that I would end up working in the built environment. I'm very glad that I did. You know, I worked in the environment for 10 years and learned so much about sustainability from an angle that I hadn't really studied at university.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 38:02

Um, so even if it might not be the sector that you thought you wanted to go into, doesn't matter, because you're still going to learn something new and it's still going to be an opportunity for you to create positive impact. So I would say, apply anywhere and everywhere and show willing to learn from different sectors and go for that. And if you can, if you are in a privileged position to be able to volunteer to get some work experience, absolutely do. It's great. You never know what contacts you'll make as well how do you manage stress?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 38:26

how do I manage stress? Um, take my dog for a walk and sometimes have a glass of wine? No, I take my dog for a walk mostly. So I have a little rescue dog that I rescued from romania. She was a little street dog and, um, yeah, I walk her like three times a day, make sure always get out, even if it's raining. She does not want to go, but I make her go. She's got to stretch her little legs as well, but, yeah, I find just being outdoors really helps me.

Darren Evans : 38:50

So, yeah, walking scout my little dog what would you give um as your first piece of advice to any mentee that you would have?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 39:02

fake it till you make it, which some people frown upon, but I swear by it for building your confidence, because if you're in a position where I don't know you're in a new role or something like that, somebody believes that you can do this job or you wouldn't have been there in the first place. So you've obviously got like the skill, the talent, the personality you know the interest there that someone has seen and thought, wow, yeah, this person can do this. So if you're struggling with imposter syndrome or you're thinking, oh my god, this is all. You know the interest there that someone has seen and thought, wow, yeah, this person can do this. So if you're struggling with imposter syndrome or you're thinking, oh my god, this is all you know, this is all too much, just um fake that you are confident and you will become confident and you'll be surprised what you can achieve.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 39:37

Um, I also swear by some. One of my friends tagged me in linkedin on this today because when she was going to a job interview she was so nervous and I told her to go into the bathrooms just before you're about to go in and make big shapes like and sort of jump around a little bit, get your adrenaline going because it just does wonders to bring out like the absolute best in you, um, so that you look, you know you feel confident going into that conversation. So fake it till you make it, make big shapes and believe in yourself, because you wouldn't be there otherwise lastly, what um what are you grateful for?

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 40:09

what am I grateful for? Um, wow, so many things. Um, I'm very grateful to the people that have mentored me throughout my career um, mitch cook at green gauge. Shamiya Mitch Cook at Green Gauge. Shamir Gumra at BRE he's now at NHS taught me so much and gave me opportunities that I had the imposter syndrome and thought, oh my god, I can't do this yet. I can't do this yet, I'm not experienced enough. And they believed that I was, and they coached me and they taught me a lot and they're part of the reason why I'm where I am today. So, yeah, I'm very grateful to them, sharing their experience with me it's been great having you here on the podcast thank you very much.

Darren Evans : 40:51

I am really grateful for your wisdom, for your effort and for you making big shapes in the bathroom.

Kerri-Emma Dobson: 40:59

Thank, you so much for having me and inviting me on. It's lovely, great good, thank you.