Gaynor Tennant: 0:00

I was in the midst of doing a lot of design coordination when they were designing new product houses or ranges of schools or things like that, and I just got really frustrated. We worked very closely with Homes England and then, in July 2020, I set it up as a non-for-profit with a large membership body. So by advocating with that friendly face that the government can come to, we are trying to transform construction. Whether it's about reducing carbon or, you know, increasing productivity is obviously key to our site. I think it's about multi-skilling people. It's about taking a strength of somebody who's a practical person, who will turn their hands to most things, and being able to give them a set of instructions, allow them opportunity. I think the youngsters coming through are fabulous.

Darren Evans: 0:41

They're tech savvy, they're brilliant, so we've got to nurture those people what is it that came to your mind for you to set up the off-site construction?

Gaynor Tennant: 0:53

so I was working at a company called modularize before and they are a design and mmc consultancy. They only do off-site and their projects and they they design the buildings basically for the factories. So they've probably worked with about 80% of UK factories. I was in the midst of doing a lot of design coordination when they were designing new products houses or ranges of schools or things like that and I just got really frustrated sitting in the design reviews and I was quite new to the industry With all these people that were just trying to create IP in how steel or timber went together.

Darren Evans: 1:27

IP.

Gaynor Tennant: 1:27

Like intellectual property.

Darren Evans: 1:29

Right.

Gaynor Tennant: 1:29

So trying to go off and do their own thing and be very, very different from everybody else and I was heavily involved in the housing manufacturers then I just became so frustrated. I thought it's ridiculous. You need to be working together and with one factory and say we'd find something that wouldn't work and then the other factory go and repeat the same mistake and you'd be sitting there going, no, you need to just be learning from each other. So I held a couple of round tables. I was very lucky that modularize have given me free reign for two years to just go off and do the OA, yeah. So I held two round tables and it just grew grew quite quickly, quite fast. Quite a lot of support needed for the sector. We worked very closely with Homes England and then, in July 2020, I set it up as a non-for-profit with a large membership body, so after about 10 months of testing. But it was accidental really, I'm honest, it was accidental, born out of frustration and having a lot of contacts.

Darren Evans: 2:17

And what happened with Modularise?

Gaynor Tennant: 2:19

So Modularise is still ticking over. Yes, my partner runs that I'm not as involved with it anymore. I don't have much to do with it. And then there's other businesses alongside. We've got an architecture practice and a steel business as well.

Darren Evans: 2:32

So of the four, if I counted right, only one of them is not non-for-profit.

Gaynor Tennant: 2:37

Yeah.

Darren Evans: 2:37

And the Offsite Alliance is the one that is a membership.

Gaynor Tennant: 2:43

Yes, so it's a group with a large membership body. So we tend to do we do three things we share knowledge to drive the sector forward for our members and come up with kind of projects that we can deliver change. We actively market our members, do loads of good news stories and do lots of events, as you'll be aware of, and then we also advocate so by advocating with that friendly face that the government can come to trusted people you know across the membership as well. We do a lot of signposting people can come to and ask for any advice or help and so what's the overall objective, then, of the off-site alliance?

Darren Evans: 3:14

what are you trying to achieve?

Gaynor Tennant: 3:15

um, it's a big objective. We are trying to transform construction. So for me it's not I always say off-site, it's a process yeah and it's a process to driving all those, a lot of the benefits that we need. Not everything is going to come from off-site, but you'll see a lot, whether it's around skills and labor, creating a nicer place for people to work, or whether it's about reducing carbon. You know, increasing productivity is obviously key with off-site. So I think through, as an off-site, you can.

Darren Evans: 3:40

You, you can streamline loads and loads of benefits would it be really good if more than 50 percent of the construction that was going on in this country came via the mmc? Would that be good?

Gaynor Tennant: 3:53

I think it would be good. I think it's hard to think of it as a product. So if you think of mmc, you think of like modern methods, and modern methods for me are not just a product or building system or a panel system or whatever a component. Modern methods encompass a lot of different things. So I think it's around digital, it's around productivity. Site improvements I think are super important and I think it's just about process and it's about how you improve that process. I think it's really interesting.

Gaynor Tennant: 4:18

Driving into Manchester today is just incredible because there's buildings going up everywhere and I'm watching these cranes. If you look at the skyline, it's just cranes and cranes across many of our cities and they're lifting pieces of plasterboard 30 storeys in the air on a crane, over and over and over. How long must that take? I met some guys at some trades last time I was here. We had a drinks reception and they were sticking tiny brick slips on the building, which was four huge apartment blocks, thousands and thousands of homes, and they were sticking brick slips on so what's the alternative?

Darren Evans: 4:49

so, instead of hoisting all this plasterboard up these high-rise apartments, what? What's a better way?

Gaynor Tennant: 4:56

it's just assembling it in a more efficient manner. Surely if we, you know, we've been sticking bricks together for years and years and years and nobody's come along really and said this is really difficult and takes a long time and you need very skilled people to do it. We need to kind of piece it together differently, assemble it differently, make it more efficient, make it more carbon friendly, because sitting there with that crane all day long shifting things up just makes no sense so you talking here?

Darren Evans: 5:21

what the picture that I've got in my mind now and please shoot me down if it's completely wrong is I'm thinking like flat pack Ikea. Is that what you're talking about when it comes to homes or when it comes to properties?

Gaynor Tennant: 5:33

When it comes to, it's just about looking at the process of things and making it.

Darren Evans: 5:37

And the reason why I've got the flat pack Ikea is I can, with really really low skill level. I've got more now because I've been married for quite a few years and so I've had lots of practice in putting things together but I can really really low skill look at a set of instructions put together a wardrobe or a bed or a chest of drawers or whatever it is. I don't need to be a carpenter to do that, carpenter to do that, and so you, that's. That's. What I've got in my mind is that I can put a building together, but I don't need to be a building professional if I follow these set of instructions. Is that what you're suggesting?

Gaynor Tennant: 6:11

kind of it's, it's kind of take. I don't think it's the answer. I really don't. I think it's about multi-skilling people. You know, I look at my dad we were talking about earlier is a perfect example of somebody that's worked in a factory all his life. Now he's been able to have transferable skills that he's brought into that. He's a very practical kinesthetic person won't sit still um, but he's worked across lots and lots of jobs in that production line. You know he's never, you know you're not stuck in one place because you get bored and you get.

Gaynor Tennant: 6:38

And I think that's the same within our factories that you see today. It's about taking a strength of somebody who's a practical person, who will turn their hands to most things, and being able to give them a set of instructions, allow them opportunity as well to influence that process. Essentially, it could be done better this way. I think is really key because at the moment we're teaching people to do one job. So we're teaching a bricklayer to be a plumber, to be a plumber. We're not teaching them a cross set of skills. So I see in the construction industry a lot of people that just know that one job and they're not interested at what somebody else does so when it comes to that, you get a problem. Whose fault is it? Well, it's not mine. I didn't know. I think a lot of the culture in the construction sector has a lot to blame for that. So by multi-skilling people, we're giving people the opportunity to see the other side as well and not just be stuck in their one thing forever.

Darren Evans: 7:28

So you're talking here, silos, and I've experienced the same thing as well, where someone will say, oh, I'll do this, but that's the electrician's job to sort that out, or for him to run this channel down here where the plumber can do that.

Gaynor Tennant: 7:40

Yeah, we've just done a big piece of work on workforce foresighting and what that looks, what the future workforce looks like, and it's been really interesting looking across the world about how they teach their workforce. And actually in Europe they teach people how to build buildings before you specialise, which is really interesting. Here we don't teach a brookie what happens on the roof, although actually because of the skill sets of those people, the innate, transferable skills, the practical, the kinesthetic can't do it. Of course they can.

Darren Evans: 8:06

So why does it not happen then? Is it really because no one's taught them and were led by the college or the school or the apprenticeship that puts you in that silo to say you're a brickie, so please don't touch the roof?

Gaynor Tennant: 8:20

A lot of it comes down to that blame culture. I think so when people are trained to do one role, they're very much in that role, they don't touch anything else, and then when you get out to industry, I'd say there's the real nasty culture about blame, liability and risk, and there has to be a bit of that, of course, in the industry. I think the construction sector takes it a little bit further than most and is too quick to walk away from that and go it's not my fault Rather than actually go. Oh, it's not my fault, but can I help you fix that? There's something we can do in order to help that. I think that's where it has to change significantly in the sector. You're going to have to have that within the education, but there's nothing around collaboration, around teamwork. It's very siloed roles.

Darren Evans: 9:07

The word collaboration is starting to feel overused to me now, because I think that I hear it at least four times a day, and I'm not talking just from my team. But it also seemed a little bit like a fluffy word, and I would use the word sustainability as another one of those fluffy words, and I think that we were also running the risk of net zero becoming a fluffy word as well. But what? What does it actually mean, collaboration? And how can we get to a point when we can say, yes, we have collaborated. Here's an example of good I think you're right.

Gaynor Tennant: 9:38

It's really funny, collaboration and I think it's been one of those words that oh, oh, yes, we're pretty, we've got this, we've got that. It's almost a badge of honour to say it should be innate in us In everything you do. The majority of people have to collaborate, whether that's at home with your family, whether that's during school, you know, within your own business.

Darren Evans: 9:58

So take that example in the home. So in the home the collaboration element generally is set by mum and dad, or mum and mum or dad and dad, or whatever the home setup is for for different people. You've got responsible adults, that the head of that home, that are leading that way forward for the children to follow on. So, using that principle inside of an industry, who is the you know metaphoric mum and dad that is leading the way and saying this is how we need to do it, kids.

Gaynor Tennant: 10:29

I think. Well, it has to start with the leaders, of course it does the leaders of businesses, I think the the government as well. You know they. They've been brilliant over the last few years on collaboration, looking at some of the collaborative contracts that are starting to use across the government frameworks and it is really being pushed. But there's always that layer underneath the leaders that I think are the biggest challenge.

Darren Evans: 10:48

So you're talking here like the oldest child, rebelling against mum and dad doing their own thing.

Gaynor Tennant: 10:53

Yeah, I would say the oldest child and the group that they hang out with.

Darren Evans: 10:58

Okay, the peer group.

Gaynor Tennant: 10:59

Yeah, there's a group of people that are not quite the leaders but do make decisions that actually it's really difficult to get those people to change because they've been doing it the same way for so long that it's easier to just keep doing what they're doing. It's not in their interest and I think that's the biggest piece of work we've got to do. I think the youngsters coming through are fabulous. They working alongside some of them there's some fantastic ones that sees youngsters network and they're just superstars in the making because they've not been caught up by. This is how we've done it. They're full of fresh ideas. They're not going to put up with the culture the way it's been.

Gaynor Tennant: 11:36

You know, sustainability means so much to them. Digital means so much to them. You know they're tech savvy, they're brilliant. So it's about. You know we've got to nurture those people and I think we've got to work with the leaders still, but the people in the middle, I think we've got to find different ways to work around them because we're not going to change those people. With all the best will in the world, it doesn't matter what you do, you're not going to change them. So how can you help?

Darren Evans: 11:58

you know, put them somewhere nice that they feel comfortable and then work out different ways to go around them and maybe then they will change and come on board because they see, oh actually there is a different way and it appears to be working quite well.

Gaynor Tennant: 12:12

Yeah, seems to be working over there. Why are they all having a party and that's it? We need transformational change, and we think we need about 3% in order to make that transformational change. I think we're currently at one, maybe a little bit more, but there are lots at the cusp of that, and it's about empowering others to do the same, I think.

Darren Evans: 12:35

And so I'm imagining now this is the bulk of your membership.

Gaynor Tennant: 12:38

I think the bulk of my membership are those ahead of the curve. That's what they're fighting for. They're the ones that need the change to happen to get the work through. They're also the ones leading with innovation and products, new products and new ways of working. They have to put up with a lot, I would say. But then there's other networks. You know, if you work quite closely with aline, who's brilliant, and ce, what's ce constructing excellence.

Gaynor Tennant: 13:00

So they're a really fabulous network and some of the work that's come out there, some of the people that are involved as well, and you could say that across lots of organizations, lots trying to make the change that's good.

Darren Evans: 13:10

I like that. Talk to me about some of the innovations that you're seeing coming up and if there are any patterns or trends that you're seeing.

Gaynor Tennant: 13:17

I think we're starting to see a bit more acceptance of different ways of working. So I think people are starting to have to use pre-assembled components. I don't want to say MMC, I'm trying to steer clear, but people are starting to think I need to do this differently. So therefore, how can I make this easier to either assemble or to transport, or to because of the lack of skills? So you'll get all these different reasons why people are making the change.

Gaynor Tennant: 13:44

I think some of the reports that we've seen lately have been really interesting reads. You know the cma report in house building that said highlighted there was 62 off-site products in our houses. That's a huge percent across the country at 62 of our houses containing some level of off-site. But when you strip it back, at every construction product product is manufactured. So they're all manufactured to start with. It's just about bringing those manufactured components together and I think for me, the the digital side of things, the way that's trans transforming the industry, is really interesting as well. Talk to me about that in a bit more detail. What is the digital side of things? The way that's transforming the industry, is really interesting as well.

Darren Evans: 14:15

Talk to me about that in a bit more detail. What is the digital side and how is it transforming the industry?

Gaynor Tennant: 14:19

So I think that that can probably make the biggest change to the industry is digital transformation. I see sort of construction, manufacturing and digital that all have to come together to really transform the industry. Obviously, the Building Safety Act is going to have a big part in that golden thread of information how that data's stored, where it's transferred to and I think there's, you know, particularly the big main contractors, the big government clients are all on board with you know, collecting all that data. Now I think there's still gaps in where it goes missing or how it gets to the end whispers a lot of the time, but that's where I think we're starting to make the biggest jump. There's a lot of new, new regulation that's about to come in on the digital front, which I couldn't go into because I'm not technical enough, but there is a huge amount, a wave about to hit us which will make the industry a much safer industry and much more transparent industry, hopefully, which we desperately need and so what does that actually look like?

Gaynor Tennant: 15:12

There's, you know, a lot of talk around product passports. So how do we collect that data on every single construction product? How do we store that data? How do we access that data? And then how do we use that data and make sure that it's up to date as well? Now that's a really challenging thing. I mean, if you've looked at any I used to look at in the design process at certificates and accreditation and seeing if it was the right accreditation for that product your safety or build height or whatever it is that you're using it for and that's really hard to get through all that. Not everybody writes the product information in the same way. Some of it might be 10 pages, some of it might be one page, some of it might have this accreditation or that accreditation. How do you get to where you need to be in order to understand that? And hopefully that's what product passports will do. They'll have all the right information. It then is up to that product manufacturer to make sure that that is constantly updated.

Darren Evans: 16:04

So I'm thinking here of something along the lines of blockchain technology. I don't know how fair you are with that.

Gaynor Tennant: 16:10

Not massively.

Darren Evans: 16:11

Do you understand the principle? I understand the concept. Yeah, I with that not massively.

Gaynor Tennant: 16:15

Do you understand that? You understand the concept? Yeah, I understand the principle of it partners actually okay, um but it's, yeah, it makes perfect sense that the whole industry yeah needs to work, you know, on a blockchain with transparent transactions that can be traced yeah and that's what we don't have.

Gaynor Tennant: 16:28

You know, I see people that all say I'm just going to swap this component out and you go no, you're not. You know your fire test data's around that. You know if it's a housing product is around that you can't swap that and that's it was going to say.

Darren Evans: 16:40

Is that's the driver, right is the price. Yeah, do you think that will ever be overcome? People wanting to do the wrong thing for the wrong reason?

Gaynor Tennant: 16:49

I don't think it will ever be a hundred percent. No, I think you're always going to get that in any industry. I think regulation will go so far to help. Cultural change will go so far to help, and accountability the next generation will be a massive part of that. I don't think we'll ever get over cost. Truly, I love value-based decision-making. It's across every other industry. No other industry goes on lowest.

Darren Evans: 17:10

The irony is that the phrase that's used in the industry is value engineering, which is code for cost-cutting.

Gaynor Tennant: 17:18

I would say value, engineer a product, and we don't have products in the industry yet. We have buildings that are often very complex and require lots and lots of different input from lots of different types of people that all want something different out of it. So I think we've got to change the way we think about the whole process of building a building and we've got to start at the beginning and say, actually, what are we trying to achieve, and then work on that basis from there onwards, which is what we don't do at the moment. We go right, we want a school. Hang on, why do we want a school? What's the reason? What does this school have to do?

Gaynor Tennant: 17:50

How much carbon move do we like to reduce? How long would you like to build it in? How long has it got to last? And then maybe we'll think about it in a different way, and that's what we don't tend to do. There will always be places where people will come in and say, right, we need to cut costs there. I think setting those outcomes from the beginning is key to any development we should.

Darren Evans: 18:09

So what about the person there at the moment that's thinking all of this stuff that you're talking about is just a waste of money? We're just too hypersensitive on carbon, we're too hypersensitive on this, that and the other Things are just so expensive. The focus needs to be on money, because without the focus on money, we can't build stuff. People aren't paid well, so we just focus on let's just do what we need to do to get the price as low as we need, and then we're happy um, they're just, but they're not.

Gaynor Tennant: 18:43

You're not gonna ever end up with the outcome that you set out to get, or you don't. In any other part of your life you don't go and buy something because it's the cheapest. So whether that's, I don't know. I always use the analogy of a fridge. I should use the analogy because I'm battling with a new freezer at the moment. I've got one. It's broken. It's not a happy place to be in, but I love that freezer. I didn't go right. I want the cheapest freezer Now. I want one that's this size that can hold lots of businesses and the kids, so I can batch, cook, I can have an organised life through this freezer. I want it to have a good EPC rating. So it's not. Let's see what's it called.

Darren Evans: 19:19

Yeah, so your energy rating Anything so?

Gaynor Tennant: 19:19

I'm not energy, you know, and it's got to do all these things. In the construction sector, we just go well, I'm going to buy the cheapest and hope it works, and then are disappointed when it doesn't work.

Darren Evans: 19:30

So you're're talking here.

Gaynor Tennant: 19:31

It sounds like design and build types of contracts yeah, I think you know so many presentations with that same slide on where the designers swing, and then by the end it's changed, and you know that happens over and over again. We drop a load of raw materials on a site with people who've not worked together before, who probably struggle to read the information that they've been given, and then we ask them to assemble it, and then they take some hammers to it and then it doesn't look like what it was supposed to look like. In the end, we wonder why we lost loads of money on it as well.

Darren Evans: 19:59

Okay, you know why is it that anyone is interested in staying in the construction industry, let alone coming in the way that you painted that picture there, it's like it sounds like chaos on a on a field actually there's 170 different job roles in the construction sector and there's so much opportunity.

Gaynor Tennant: 20:16

You see, you see the kids being thrown into construction because they're not going to get any gcses. Actually they're on 150 000 a year, our trades. They're doing really well for themselves. It's a great career. It does need to change and there's a lot. There's an uphill battle, but it is changing. I love it because the opportunity is there. So there's an opportunity to change, the opportunity help people to. So there's an opportunity to change, an opportunity to help people, to help other organisations grow as well and to help people do things differently. Whereas you'd be bored if you, I would be personally very bored if I wasn't helping. I think it's key.

Darren Evans: 20:45

If I didn't have a challenge, gaynor, I think that we're now in a position where we can go to the demolition zone. Gaynor, we are back now in the demolition zone and you have created this structure now, just for those people that cannot see, there are two large towers bridged by two arcs and one smaller tower bridged by a single block. What does it represent?

Gaynor Tennant: 21:16

I think it represents flexibility and creativity. Should I say yeah. I might be the most creative you've ever known.

Darren Evans: 21:24

That's the most creative I've seen today. I'll take it Today. It is very creative, without doubt.

Gaynor Tennant: 21:29

So I think I'd like to say I've come into the construction sector probably unexpectedly, and I think most people drop in either by accident or relatively. So you either, you know, find your way by somebody saying, oh, you should do this, dad, or you've got somebody in, you know a contracting business that you think, oh, I'll go and do this, and I think a huge amount of people fall into the construction sector by accident. I don't think that's a bad thing because I think then it's bringing people in from different backgrounds with different skill sets. I think the biggest change we could have in the construction sector is to look outside of that box maybe, where we usually find people, and bring different skill strengths in. So I think my tower represents, uh, creativity and squiggly careers.

Darren Evans: 22:12

I think that's I love that for you I love that squiggly careers. I think you could maybe set up a recruitment consultant.

Gaynor Tennant: 22:19

Call it squiggly careers yeah, probably what you're doing today wasn't tomorrow, but I think that's right.

Darren Evans: 22:26

You know it's um. It's never too late to change and, I think, to have that fixed mindset to say this is what I am and who I am. I think that, when it comes to the type of work that you do, I think it's really quite short-sighted, because any one person is far bigger than the job that they get paid to do.

Gaynor Tennant: 22:44

Yeah, I think you know we put a lot of pressure and emphasis on our kids doing that as well. So it's your will. You know what you do. You're going to do careers advice. You're going to do your GCSEs at 14. When you choose your options 14, 15 how can you possibly know what you're going to do with the rest of your life? And I never did. Never had a clear direction.

Gaynor Tennant: 23:01

My mum used to call me a butterfly. She used to say I don't know what we're going to do with you, but all I wanted to do was drama. So I did it. I went. It was funny. When I was about 14, my friend friends mum had a friend who worked at the National Theatre in London and she came to our holiday place and she said right, we're going to have a careers session whilst we're on our summer holidays. It was a very anti-global thing to do. So we had this lady come in Leslie, she was lovely and she was a stage manager at the National Theatre and she told us all about that. And then that was it. That was all I ever wanted to do was work in it.

Gaynor Tennant: 23:33

She inspired you, yes, but it's those moments of inspiration that are really, really a key to the kids, I think. And that's what we're not doing. We're not filling careers and experiences, we're just saying this is what you're going to do. And then the fact it must be so daunting for our kids nowadays to go I've got to do that for the rest of my life. No, you haven't. You're going to learn lots from doing that. Then you're going to learn lots from doing that. Then you're going to go into something else. You're going to learn lots there, and it's about taking all the things you've learned and being able to put them into a new package, I think I love that.

Darren Evans: 24:04

I love that thought. When you're ready, destroy the myth however you like, that felt really well. That was impressive.

Gaynor Tennant: 24:14

I love that that's what it was built to. That is good, that is good well, you.

Darren Evans: 24:18

I'm wondering if there are any projects that you have worked on or that you're aware of that you think are really notable, one just to mention.

Gaynor Tennant: 24:28

For any reason, I think there's some great work going on with the Ministry of Justice at the moment on their Category D prisons. I've just been a judge, actually, on the Offsite awards. There's been some really good entries around the Ministry of Justice and delivering their schemes and it's not always you know, being in the off-site sector you think, oh, it's going to be, you know all singing, dancing, you know volumetric or, and it's not. It's the use of digital tools and the way they've built digital twins and the way they they've managed the data and I think they're fantastic projects. I think the collaborative contracts have been great. They work with the supply chain and from the outset they've been very engaged. I think they've done a really really good job and I think the other government clients need to follow that and I hear quite a lot about it in the kind of environment.

Gaynor Tennant: 25:16

There's another project which I was lucky enough to be part of, tip Live this year, so Transforming Infrastructure Performance Live and I was asked to be on a panel and I was super excited because I've not really been in the world of infrastructure before and I love anything new, and so I was part of that panel but I sat through some of the talks from these amazing people in the infrastructure sector and one of the talks was about the thames tideway project. So they said to. They said to contractors, could you reduce the carbon? And they said, yeah, we can. Okay, do you want to bid for it? How much carbon can you reduce? So, um, six came back with the reduced 25.

Gaynor Tennant: 25:51

So I think they then went out whether it's terribly accurate, but this is my interpretation. Then they went out and said, okay, we want you to work together to reduce up to 50. So they said, oh, okay, we will. So in the end they've procured three of them and they've pushed back on them further and said we want the most carbon reducing out of that project that you can possibly do. So they've got three big, big main contractors to work together to reduce the carbon. That will ultimately win them. So I think there's things. There are some big projects. I think some of the little projects that you see as well, you know some of the stuff in housing is really really good. That's going, although it's been a bit slower to pick up. It's got its challenges.

Darren Evans: 26:29

But I think some of the MOJ, the DIO and probably the infrastructure piece, I love that and I love the way that you kind of brought us back to the point of collaboration and actually this is a real life example of these organizations working together to come up with an end product, as opposed to just throwing stuff out there, pulling it up and doing the same old thing yeah, imagine what we could achieve if we all put our ideas in the hat and all work together.

Darren Evans: 26:57

There is not an easy is there anything about your organization that you think? Actually, if I could just talk about this for a little bit, then this would help.

Gaynor Tennant: 27:06

I've been heavily involved in kind of working alongside the government and I think the opportunities now with the new government to get it right are huge. But I think they need to listen to the right people because there's a lot of good advice and bad advice and I think the bad advice gets heard more often. So I would say to the new government to go to industry to speak to them and to really dig deep on what is going on before they make any grand plans to spend lots of money quite unnecessarily, I would say so what three things would you say that government ministers can can look for as pointers that they are on the right track or speaking to the right people?

Gaynor Tennant: 27:47

I would say speak to new people new people in the industry new people in the industry. There's a lot of them out there that don't get heard, that don't get seen, that have the right advice. Don't necessarily pick the easiest procurement route that would be number two.

Darren Evans: 28:01

Yep, and then what do you mean by that? The easiest procurement route?

Gaynor Tennant: 28:04

so the easiest is to do what you've always done before okay, same sort of contractual basis and just procure the same people off the same framework, looking for the right advice, the easiest advice, because that's not necessarily always the best way to go. And I would say the more they can. Thirdly, the more they can work across government departments to have those lessons learned. So we could take the lessons learned from even the dfe framework in its early days and then bring that through to the cross learnings and I know they do a bit of that. But to maybe increase that a little bit further, I would say it would be really good.

Darren Evans: 28:37

I love that good, great advice, and I think that what you're talking about is is is really important there, because there have been some good things that have been done on the dfe and I know, on the on the on the prison side of things, the ministry of justice, I think that there are some good things going on there too there's great examples all over the place and it's not hard to find them if you just look.

Darren Evans: 28:57

You just have to be prepared to maybe go that little bit further you know it's been an absolute delight to have you on the on the show today. I really appreciate your time, your wisdom, your energy and your smile thank you, Darren.

Gaynor Tennant: 29:09

Thanks very much for having me.