Tunde: 0:00

It's about working with clients trying to shape, create, get a handle on their own approach to the climate emergency. Everybody expects a business to be showing a part way to become an editor and they don't know how to do that. Diversity is needed, you know, for any business society to flourish. Right, there is a massive performance gaps in most buildings, I think. If you're talking about small medium enterprises in particular, I think one of the biggest challenges for them, I believe that most of my job is still converting hearts and minds. Don't be satisfied with the bare minimum. You got to go over and beyond, look for it. It won't come to you. Well, the education is architecture, and that's because I had a flair for art and I was quite okay with numbers. Right, how people relate with spaces within spaces, perceived spaces, experienced spaces, you know, and how you can actually use that you know to actually inform how people move around, how people find the light. Yeah, that was being passion for me. That is my passion I love that.

Darren: 1:16

Where do you think that passion came from for you?

Tunde: 1:19

ah, that's. That's interesting. Um, it was mostly accidental, I would say, because everyone in my family mum, dad, sister, brother they're all accountants, they're numbers people, they're very detailed people, very focused, very disciplined. That's the kind of home I grew up in, and I was the one the last of three kids who just wouldn't put a pen down. I would draw all day long. I love drawing, I love putting things together, I love painting.

Tunde: 1:51

And then I went on to secondary school or high school and my art teacher was very, very, very instrumental to driving my passion for art, because he saw something in me, driving my passion for art because he saw something in me and he went on to encourage me to, um, to put in an entry into a national arts competition, which I won, by the way. It was incredible and that was the beginning, you know, and there was a belief in me. Actually I could do this. I can express thoughts and imaginations through art, you know. And, uh, my late uncle saw that and said look, you're not just a numbers girl like everybody else. You've got a special gift, you know, with your flair for imagination and how you can actually think something and translate it on paper, you know, and um, yeah, and that led me into uh, architecture school, you know, and um, that was the beginning of the journey.

Tunde: 2:45

So you started with an art teacher. I like to mention his name. His name is Yisa Akimbolaji. He is not in Canada at the moment. He inspired me. He was the first person I'd known that actually showed belief in me Incredible.

Darren: 3:03

And how did he do that for you? Because you hear so many stories of bad examples of teaching and bad examples of teachers stifling students, but I've not heard very many stories at least on this podcast yet of people saying that this teacher has inspired me. So what is it that he actually did, and and how did that show up for you?

Tunde: 3:26

I think, first and foremost was he embodied it. You know, he had a very unique art form himself which he shared with the students. He would invite us to his own personal studio. Look at my works. So it wasn't just a case of telling you he was showing, right, uh, and he would go over and beyond just a curriculum. It goes over and beyond just the interaction in the classroom. You know, there would be exhibitions and you get us tickets to go to it. I mean and he started to put a bit of a challenge to it the best three students in my class will get this ticket and you get to see this famous artist, you know, and doing the exhibition. I mean, he went over. That was way beyond his job description. He genuinely believed in his students, right, and he wanted to draw the best out of us. He never gave me an opportunity to doubt myself and that is very infectious, his enthusiasm, and he just drew belief in me.

Darren: 4:33

What advice would you have then for someone and I know that you teach in universities, I do so what advice would you give to someone that's in, maybe, year one of an architectural course?

Tunde: 4:48

Oh well, I think what I would say is be curious Devour everything you can, you know, because at that stage that's all you can do you know you need to ingest as much as possible.

Tunde: 5:06

You know, at that particular stage, um, you'll be familiar with architecture, having multiple languages and forms and expressions through the decades, and all that various, um very established international architects and practices with. You know their signature. You know way of expressing form. You know and function. Um, there's so much to learn you know out there and I think by devouring that, by ingesting all of that, you will find your own form. You find, you know, your own essence in the midst of it.

Tunde: 5:43

But you will not be created out of a void. How much you get out of it is how much you put into it. So at the early stages you just need to get so much in. Don't be satisfied with the bare minimum. You've got to go over and beyond. Look for it. It won't come to you. Go find it. How often do you teach? I do my lectures every year, so, both first and second semesters, undergrads and postgrads. That's University of Bath, university of Bristol, university of West of England. I did a thing at Cardiff University as well, welsh School of Architecture. So, yeah, I would probably lecture like three, four times a year now.

Darren: 6:28

And so who is it that you work for at the moment? What is it that you do there?

Tunde: 6:33

I thought you'd never ask. Just kidding, I work with RPS Group. We are a treasure tech company, so again, it's a multidisciplinary consultancy based in the UK and not acquired by an American big brand. Rps itself is about 30,000 man strong Tetra Tech with Tetra Tech now we're about 30,000 man strong with about 60 odd disciplines spread across 550 offices worldwide. So I sit within the environment division of Tetra Tech RPS and I've got the privilege of leading our award-winning ESG team, which is environmental social governance, and we've got teams based in London, bristol and Leeds, teams based in London, Bristol and Leeds.

Darren: 7:26

And what does that role that you've got actually entail?

Tunde: 7:34

So, if you kind of to break that down, what is it that you actually do? So? For me, it's about working with clients in terms of organisations trying to shape, create, get a handle on their own approach to the climate emergency. How do they address their responsibility in terms of what business should be doing in society and for the planet and for the community and people? How do we do that? And, most notably, is things around net zero carbon commitment, where everybody expects a business to be showing a pathway to, around net zero carbon commitment, where everybody expects a business to be showing a part way to become a net zero and they don't know how to do that.

Tunde: 8:11

So my role is to help organizations and businesses to understand where they are and how to get to where they want to be, both in terms of in the light of their investors, in the light of their partners, in the light of all their stakeholders, both top and bottom, and staff and future employee. And that's the one bit of the work I do. And then on the other side as well, in the build sector, I work with developers, with asset owners, with design teams, contractors delivering projects ranging from residential to offices, healthcare, different kind of infrastructure and buildings and setting sustainability targets, aspirations, photos, going through planning stage, through the design stage, translating the design intent as well into, uh, the built performance which you want to see, and then, beyond that, is trying to get a grasp for the operational performance you know is there any gaps there, as we know there is a massive performance gaps in most buildings, you know, from what's intended and designed to what's actually realised, is a big goal.

Darren: 9:26

And what about your role, would you say, brings you the most satisfaction?

Tunde: 9:31

I think for me it's seeing a client who just gets it. For quite a long time I've been on a project where a client didn't quite get it and to find a client who then goes right.

Tunde: 9:47

Okay, that makes sense. That's a eureka moment for me. I believe most of my job is still converting hearts and minds. You know as much as also building knots and bolts, but anyone can build knots and bolts right. You've got methodologies, you've got standards, frameworks, you've got case studies, you know and examples. You could use templates to build that on right. But hearts and mind, that's a deep one.

Darren: 10:19

It's interesting you mentioned the hearts and minds. When those two things come together, often people know what the right thing is to do. Yeah, they do, but because their heart's not in it it doesn't get done, no, no.

Tunde: 10:32

And to be able to see just beyond the bare minimum is such a beautiful thing.

Darren: 10:38

So what have you found?

Tunde: 10:39

effective ways of gaining people's hearts and minds, storytelling, which you, by the way, are very good at, darren, I must say, yeah, I think it comes down to the ability to connect with people. Many times we find ourselves trying to show how brilliant we are, you know, how technically sound we are, and sometimes it can be off-putting, you know, and quite a lot of messaging in our field, our industry and consultancy, and climate advocacy. It's a lot of painting of doom and gloom. It's depressing.

Tunde: 11:15

It doesn't quite get anybody to want to really do stuff, right. But sometimes if you flip the message around, show positivity, show the art of what's possible, paint an utopia or a picture of a future that we want and want to aspire to, I find that a bit more elevating. That could draw a stronger call to action, right. So I think it starts with that being able to engage, to connect and you're genuinely interested in their journey right, you immerse yourself within that and that's how you can start to connect and engage. You've got to understand the language and speak the same language, right, it means you've got to learn a few things. You upskill yourself a little bit, you know. But that's how you connect and engage. You cannot be generic from the late stuff you keep brought in. That's not engaging, you know. You're just going to lose people.

Darren: 12:13

I love that point, with two points actually. I love One is the one that you've just made there around personalizing that message. Make it personal and engage that way instead of general. But the other one that you've mentioned with reference to um, making the thing that you're fighting for a positive thing instead of the thing that you're fighting for a negative thing. So making it looking forward to a point of positivity as opposed to just try to preserve something. So we've already discussed.

Darren: 12:43

We both love football and if I'm thinking of a really good football manager, I generally won't think of Sam Allardyce. Sam Allardyce is known for the man to keep the team up in the league and prevent them from going down into another league below. So they're all about preservation. Let's just try and keep and we need to fight, because if we don't fight, we're going to go down. We don't want to do that versus a, a manager like you're going to clop or maybe even pep guardiola, who have been fighting but to win something, because they're the opposite end of the table and it seems to be a different. They're both fighting for a reason, but one of the reasons is to in inverted commas win or achieve a utopia. This is where we want to get to, and the other one is we're fighting because we want to preserve, because we don't want anything bad to go on.

Tunde: 13:41

Absolutely. I love that analogy, darren, and I can see that, uh, in consultancy as well. Historically and traditionally, you find that in consultancy, you just want to get above that bottom line. It's about the cash cows. It's about you know the bread and butter, you know, and we get it right. We've got to be economically sustainable to keep people in the business and to put food on the table for our employee and staff. But there's more than that.

Tunde: 14:13

There's more than that, and that's exactly what you're talking about. In the lead, you've got to find teams that aspire for more. Our purpose is beyond just compliance check and assessments.

Darren: 14:27

What would you say is some of the barriers that boards of mid-size to large companies face at the moment when it comes to winning hearts and minds, not just of their workforce, but also of their client base workforce, but also of their client base.

Tunde: 14:48

I think, if you're talking about small medium enterprises in particular, I think one of the biggest challenges for them is it's very near-sighted, right. What's really immediate to them is resources. They struggle resources. We don't have the resource for it, both in terms of financial capital and in terms of human capital. You know we're't have the resource for it, both in terms of financial capital and in terms of human capital. You know we're thin on the ground. Who's going to do it? Who's going to take that?

Tunde: 15:10

True, um, head of finance is also head of admin. You know, how are they going to manage that as well? So they are really, uh, at a very disadvantaged position in that regards. You, you know, and that's where we want to try and see where we can collaborate more closely with them. And then you start to bring in this concept of embedded partnership, right, and you could have within your team, you know, secondments. You know, you got a consultant to be with them for a period of six to 12 months. You know to bridge that gap, right, and it starts to show them the art of what's possible.

Tunde: 15:48

You know, and um, uh, whilst we can't particularly directly influence the financial capital there, um, but at least we can help them to start to sort out, you know, the resourcing side of life. I mean we can't solve every single problem, but the bits we can we will do. But I think for me it's resourcing side of life I mean we can't solve every single problem, but the bits we can we will do. But I think for me it's resourcing is one of the biggest challenges. It gives a massive headache. It probably just makes them switch off because we can't do it.

Darren: 16:16

I'm wondering now um how this then shows up for larger organizations. So resource isn't such an issue. No it's not. But what other things are barriers for them?

Tunde: 16:28

So for larger organizations I guess it could be a case of. There are some businesses that they are happy where they are. It could be complacency. They already renown for certain things. They're known for this, they're known for that, they're known for that. They've got a solid reputation in their craft and they don't feel a need to change that they feel they're doing fine, and that's enough.

Darren: 16:54

So this is the cash-carry mentality, correct, we're just churning it over, absolutely. Shareholders are happy.

Tunde: 17:00

Absolutely, we'll stay in our lane. If it's not broken, don't fix it. Are happy. Absolutely, we'll stay in our lane. If it's not broken, don't fix it. That's what they'll say to you. But you've got to paint the picture. Take them down the memory lane. Look at kodak, for example. You know and there are many other businesses like that you know that failed. You know blockbuster. You know to to move with the times. They became redundant.

Darren: 17:22

The interesting thing as well. I've read something recently when netflix I think they were something like 50 million in the hole when they decided to aggressively take home Blockbuster Right, so they were financially in a very, very different position than what Blockbuster were. But we know how the story ended Absolutely, and I think that from that, the thing that I find interesting is is that if you're in the hole doesn't mean to say that you'll stay in the hole Absolutely, and if you see someone else in the hole, that doesn't mean to say that they are going to stay in the hole. True that, absolutely. Talk to me about coming from Nigeria to the UK.

Tunde: 18:01

Ooh that's an interesting bit. I never thought I'd be in the UK. Most of my family are based in America, but why leave?

Darren: 18:09

Nigeria.

Tunde: 18:13

Why leave Nigeria? Why leave Nigeria? So for me, it was a desire to, to, to, to get a platform for myself to address something that was big on my heart and which was the impact of the built environment on the natural environment.

Tunde: 18:26

So, remember, I was an architect, you know, designing buildings, and I saw the funds coming in from the World Bank and we're embracing all kinds of you know building designs and stuff you know but they were having massive detrimental impacts on the environment. The main one was in the oil and gas sector. I saw communities blighted by the exploitation and exploration of oil and I'd seen some massive industrial plants built on the back of World Bank funds that didn't make sense. They did not sustain. You know, an example of it was an incineration plant in the heart of Lagos city. I'm like In the center of the city. Well, in the city, yeah, in the city.

Tunde: 19:12

I'm like, why would you do this? That's one. Secondly, you're looking at a city where the split between waste, biodegradable waste and non-biodegradable waste is probably about 40, 60. Right, why would you incinerate that? But that's what they're doing. So it was just ridiculous, it didn't make sense, right? And that was where I wanted to get myself an opportunity to be able to speak into that, and that's what drove me to take a master's in environmental engineering and sustainable development at Imperial College. So that was where it started from.

Darren: 19:51

So you were in Nigeria seeing that there was a need for significant change. The reason for this significant change is because decisions were being made that were just outlandish, being driven by Bonkers yeah, bonkers, that's absolutely bonkers. It seemed as though that that decision was being driven by money and the desire for more money as opposed to the health of the people that lived in that city. I mean, just for perspective here, how many people are there in Lagos, which is the capital of Nigeria?

Tunde: 20:21

Yes, so Lagos is a very, very tiny parcel of land on the west coast of Nigeria and it's about 25, million people.

Darren: 20:30

So 30 million people are all breathing in toxic fumes as a result of this incineration. Plant absolutely in your heart. You're like I need to make a difference. Why could you not make a difference by going to a university in Nigeria? Why the Imperial College in London?

Tunde: 20:45

well, that's a good question. I think at the time though, I didn't see any program right there within Nigeria that actually addressed that, you know. So for me, initially I wanted to do architectural engineering, you know, but the cost didn't exist right. But I couldn't afford to do, you know, to afford overseas education at the time. So I went on a train to do architectural design, which was what was available at the time. But my passion was still there into engineering. So the opportunity came when I got a fully funded scholarship by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office UK, via the British Council, to then take up that master's programme and why did that scholarship come to you?

Darren: 21:30

What was it that they saw in you? Or how did you go through that process to have someone pay?

Tunde: 21:35

for it? Yes, sometimes I keep asking myself that question why me? And basically, the essence of the programme is to find change agents, people with a bit of passion for a future that has a sustainable outcome associated with it, and they have a bit of an understanding and they desire to gather tools, you know, which they need, to be able to facilitate those outcomes.

Darren: 22:02

I can see, by the fire in your eyes and just the way that you're presenting yourself, that you have that passion for change and also the things that you're talking about. So I think that, um, whoever made the decision, I think they made a great decision. Thank you, british council. But I think that that's um, that that's important to note for two reasons. One is, um, for people to appreciate and understand that live and that were born in this country, that the route from another country to this country is not just a straightforward one. You can't just decide you know, I'm gonna go and study in England, let me just hop on a plane and go across to England and go and study yeah, yeah, but it does.

Tunde: 22:42

It didn't end up coming to study because after my program I left the UK and came back to Lagos to continue my career.

Darren: 22:51

I'm going to go on to that in a second, but I just want to make that second point, that is. That is, um, that why I wanted to kind of draw this out is that there is a young version of Tunde back in maybe Lagos, maybe a different country, that has a passion and a desire in their heart and they're like, how do I go and express that when the country that I'm in at the moment don't have the course that I, that my heart desires? So how can my heart, my head and my heart join to put that energy into something okay? Well, maybe here's an example here sitting right in front of me, of someone that's been able to do that, to go and learn in, in and do that thing in another country. Which then brings me on to my next point, which is then you've which you said I've now gone back to Nigeria. So can you kind of pick up the story from there, why you went back, what you did, yeah.

Tunde: 23:44

So I mean, like I said, they need, they intend was to get tools to build a platform to give myself a voice to be able to address a concern. But but of course I was a bit naive to think that just because I've got a master's degree from the great imperial college and then everybody's gonna stop and listen to me.

Tunde: 24:02

If only it was that easy if only if it was that easy. But honestly, I believe, believe I could persuade anyone, you know, and I did. I did so much. I wrote proposals, I got letters, you know, I spoke to people, I got connected to. The question believe it or not at the end of everything was what's the need for us? It died. It died very quickly.

Tunde: 24:26

The level of corruption back back in africa is incredibly unbelievable. Yeah, it seems like almost every desire to do anything good, uh, just gets slaughtered on the altar of personal greed. It breaks my heart because you've got great people, great minds, willing to do really good stuff, but because of certain people, very few people with so much power. But greed, the sabotage. It is the reason why lots of great nations in africa are where they are, not because of lack of resources I mean not, there's no lack of natural resources, absolutely no lack of human resources or whatsoever but just a small fraction of people with so much power. But greed sabotages the advancement and progress of the nation.

Tunde: 25:15

So I was deeply frustrated and not long after that I got an email from acom saying oh, we heard about you, would you like to work for us? And I, well, sorry, you're way too late, I'm in nigeria now, like all right, let's have a telephone interview. Like all right, you're gonna call me, because I'm gonna call you. I didn't take this seriously. Okay, I got cold and uh, within a week I got an offer, you know, and I'm saying, oh wow, this is happening and that was how I got back to the uk.

Darren: 25:43

Okay, okay well, it's interesting that we've touched on this. So we've got to a point now, I think, in the conversation that we can go to the demolition zone. We're in the demolition zone yes, we are. You have created this thing that looks like an aztec pyramid. It is indeed a pyramid, darren, I guess, probably down to your skill as opposed to my to be honest, that was great, though you saw it very. I'm glad you noticed it was a pyramid, but what does it represent?

Tunde: 26:12

This represents society, it represents the construction industry, it represents the myth of diversity and inclusion. So if you look at the bottom on there, you can see a myriad mix of stuff right Of different blocks, of different colours, you know. But as you go all the way to the top, there's a trend and it starts to become very homogeneous. And that is what I've seen in my going to 10, 2 decades in the industry. Is true, diversity shouldn't be measured at the bottom or at the entry point of any organisation or industry. Look at the top, look at the board. That is the true litmus test of diversity and inclusion. If there can't be representation where decisions are made, then yeah, we're not quite representing society, are we?

Tunde: 27:06

And it's one of the reasons why I decided to join the police force as well, because in over 10 years I'd lived in Bristol I'd never seen a black policeman. And I'm sure they are, but they're so few that you never see them. I mean, you're just seeing pictures from the weekends and the riots and the protests and you know things going on. And I looked through all the news reports and I still didn't see a black policeman on there. And I think representation matters a lot and it's one of my, took that step.

Tunde: 27:34

So this I built to say, uh, diversity, inclusivity, inclusion and all the metrics we use, um are a bit skewed to the entry point of negotiations. Uh, at um, the junior levels, we see a lot of all that 50, 50 genders, you know ethnic minority representations, you see all of all that. You know disability and all the kinds of protected characteristics. You see them all at the entry points. But along the journey people start to fall off. I mean, a friend of mine did a movie called Vanishing Women to show how women, particularly women of colour, start to vanish as you go higher in your career. So yeah, I think we need to have a rethink on how we, if you like, define diversity and how we paint that picture in the industry. I think we start to look at it top, bottom, right on bottom up.

Darren: 28:34

I like that and the way, just for those people that are listening. So the top tier of bricks are all blue. They're all the same color, blue. The bottom and the lower tiers are different colors, different shapes as well. So what would you say then to someone that is on the board of, say, a FTSE 100 company or a FTSE 200 company In the construction industry? At the construction industry? I don't think that there's too much of a difference. Really, to the point, if I understand what you're saying, what message would you give to board members?

Tunde: 29:09

I think it's two things. One is honesty. Let's be honest about this. We've got a problem. Secondly, can we be courageous? You know and accept there is a problem and do something about the problem and not try to massage the story and the narrative to suit, just embrace it.

Tunde: 29:32

This is where we are. It might not be of your making. A lot of things are skewed, particularly in the construction industry, where it's generally male-dominated and all that. We know that. We take that, and in consultancy as well environmental consultancy we're now starting to see women come onto boards, you know, and leading teams, which is great to see, but it's not nearly enough, right? So the question is what are the hard decisions that need to be made? Right? Where has it gone wrong now and what are we doing about it? Right, it's not enough to start setting targets for your hr teams and business unit leaders to get you know this numbers right entry level what are you doing throughout the course of an individual's career to sponsor them, to promote them, to develop them, to support them, to empower them so that they do?

Darren: 30:31

succeed. I'm gonna let you knock it down in a minute, but I just I've got this thing on my mind, yeah, which is bringing me back to the teacher that you had that could see a vision in you and then what you were trying to do, that inspired you to be on the path that you're on, and I'm wondering here if your message is in also including that for board members is that when they see the metaphoric spludge on the, on the white canvas or on the canvas, that they don't say, oh, that's a mistake, that they say, oh, actually you can, and they start to I think the word you used was gush, I've forgotten the exact word, but exude, that was the word. It starts to exude and and that helps the person to feel, oh, yes, I can see how this mistake in adverted commas can be used for not just my good, but the good of the company as well. Correct, but you need a visionary leader in order to do that.

Tunde: 31:28

Correct, correct. Somebody with a belief, someone that buys it, someone that buys into it, that seizes and desires, you know, to see people flourish. And people are not race, colour, gender or gender or sexual orientation. People are people full stop, and I think that's where we need to get to. But we're still a mile, millions of miles away from that. And the myth is that diversity is happening, but no, it's not At that senior level. No, it's not At that senior level. No, it's not.

Darren: 32:08

Well, do you want to go ahead and destroy that myth? Absolutely, it would be my pleasure. Away you go.

Tunde: 32:13

Shall, we, let's do it, smash it.

Darren: 32:23

That was gratifying. I love the way you did that that just your hand came down on it and you just wiggled and squashed it.

Tunde: 32:29

I love that I enjoy that.

Darren: 32:32

One of those that is good, certainly. I'm wondering is there anything that's on your mind at the moment that you think would be useful for our listeners to hear?

Tunde: 32:41

I'm, I'm going to say to them is probably what I'm probably saying to myself as well. And what I've been saying to myself most recently is what lies ahead of me is so much greater than all that is behind, whether it's success, whether it's failure. The past is so much smaller than all that lies ahead, and the message behind that is really don't hold too much to the past, whether it's a success or a failure. Grow out of it. Strive for that which lies ahead. It's exciting. It's so much more bigger, you know, and in it's it's essential for us to rise beyond all the noise of the present.

Tunde: 33:30

Right now, and particularly for males 25, 35, mental health issues, a real challenge. Um, I've had my share of it, right, and um, and one of the things that's helped me to overcome that is, this is not my final chapter, this is not the end of my story. There's still many more chapters ahead. You know of today. You know there's so much greater heights to still climb. There's still more challenges to surmount, right, and I'm grateful for my past experiences, you know and the lessons from all the failures, right, and the joy from all the triumphs, the big ones, the small ones, the little. I celebrate them. You know all of it, but yet there's still so much more that lies ahead.

Darren: 34:21

Thank you, tunday. You know I'm with you. I have loved having you as a guest on the podcast. Your wisdom and your positivity, optimism is infectious and I absolutely love it. Keep doing what you're doing, because the world definitely needs you thanks, darren, that's really great to hear.

Tunde: 34:37

Thanks for having me. Thank you.