John Johnson: 0:00

and all of that is actually sort of pushing them to make some changes. And we always felt that there was going to be that pinch point where people are going to have to actually really look at the technology they're using, and that doesn't mean just the heating technology. That could be hot water technology, that's actually all sorts of fabric technology and everything else that actually gets them over the line with regards to whatever the regulation states they've got to do. If I'm honest, I think without that pinch point people just carry on doing what they're doing. You know, I watch houses go up around me all the time and it frustrates the life out of me that many of them still haven't got solar panels on because they're being built to old regs. But I could never understand why old regs weren't years ago. You know, I mean I it's crazy to me, but here we are. So you know, I think even it, you know, it doesn't matter whether or not it's putting solar panels on a roof or it's actually doing anything else better with the build quality or what have you. Regulations are sort of the pinch point really of pushing that forward. There may be other logical reasons of actually sort of decarbonizing, but principally, I think without the change in those regulations, nothing really much changes. So there are a lot of the relationships we've been, I mean, for the last sort of three and a half years.

John Johnson: 1:08

We've done a lot of other projects as well, sort of, you know, there's obviously within cities, you know, there's not, as, let's say, much requirement for commercial space, so a lot of that is actually being switched to apartments and what have you as well, which is a perfect hunting ground for us. Uh, the system is perfectly suited for that kind of you know, solution, for that kind of build um. But yeah, I think that you know much of what we've done over this last while is to actually work with, with new builders, put in trial houses. We're launching, well, say we level partnership next wednesday actually it goes live um, we've actually built um two houses exactly the same on a site there at Spennymoor. There's one which is our heating system. It's got an air source, hot water cylinder in there. It's got a couple of other bits of technology in there with regards, you know, mechanical heat, ventilation and a few other bits in there as well, sort of shower, rainwater, recirculation and things like that.

John Johnson: 2:02

But that that's called the Tomorrow Home and that goes live next week, next door, exactly the same type of house and that's got an air source system in it. Really so, effectively, it gives us a great opportunity to compare the two, compare the two. Yeah, so Teesside University are actually I'm saying literally as we speak, but they'll be finished by the end of this week are putting her on the monitoring kit and what have you in preparation for, effectively, what will be? You know, 12 months trial. There's two systems very different, you know, from a variety of reasons. Um, you know, and I'll I'll begin to touch on sort of infrared heating, if you like as well and and and and what the differences are I mean, that's the thing that I'd like to kind of just cover off for those people that don't know and understand what infrared heating is.

Darren Evans: 2:45

Yeah, you just break it down just principally what it, what it is all about, okay, so the easiest way I can probably explain it is the sun, if you go that way.

John Johnson: 2:55

So the sun generates obviously a variety of different sort of heat rays and whatever it might be from the sun we actually get heat, but it essentially it doesn't heat the air at all. So the, the infrared energy from the sun actually comes down to earth and it warms the earth and what then happens is the earth then releases that heat. So infrared heating works in exactly the same way, or certainly the carbon film infrared heating does. Instead of actually directly actually warming the air, what it's doing is imparting energy into the objects within that space, and a lot of people actually they, they, they. They get the misconception. They say, well, it doesn't warm the air, but it does, but it's a secondary effect as to how it warms the air. So, for example, if you've actually got infrared heating in here, it's physically warming all the objects in here that could be the brick, the table, the carpets, literally everything and then, once it gets to a temperature that you desire, essentially system switches off and then slowly everything releases that heat. So so that's what's actually happening with infrared heating systems, the correlation of that. If you look at sort of convector heating systems like normal radiator, traditional radiators or, you know, central heating systems and what have you? They've got a heat source that's in the corner of the room and effectively, what that's doing is actually heating the air within that space. So, principally, that's the really the main difference. Convector heating is actually designed to heat air. Infrared heating is designed to heat objects, but they both warm the air, but just in a slightly different way.

John Johnson: 4:24

Within the spectrum of infrared heating there's a variety of different systems, if you like, principally three, I think you could, you could say so. You've got a thing called a quartz heating system, which basically, is mostly what they have in pubs. People are familiar with that because they press on it if they're cold while they're having a cigarette. They're really naughty, they try and light the cigarette on the actual thing itself. They get really hot, yeah, and if so long as you're in its, in its orbit, then you can feel that warmth.

John Johnson: 4:50

Then you've got infrared panels, you know, and infrared panels have become very popular over the last probably 10 years, in truth, you know, um, but again very different to the sort of thing that we do, because what they actually are is a solid panel. Most people put them on the wall and the idea of actually putting them on a wall if you've actually got a workspace or something in front of it, that it again warms you, because obviously the heat's coming out of that. They tend to get pretty hot, you know, um, but in the same way that if the sun or if the earth was a couple of million miles, this way we wouldn't be be here. So there's a sweet spot for infrared.

John Johnson: 5:27

Because of the distance it can travel, so for the wall panels it generally is around sort of maximum three meters and because of the way that it actually heats space, unless it's got something to grab onto it can't work properly. So putting it on the wall there, for instance, by the time it's got to I mean, it's about three and a half meters to here most of its energy is actually dissipated, so it has to have stuff to grab onto really. So having it in, let's say, in front of your desk while you're sort of sitting there and it's warming you, it's great, but it's very directional in the way that it works and they get pretty hot. So their operating temperature is around sort of 90. Sometimes even hotter, but certainly then effectively our system is is different again. So where we install it is actually behind the plasterboard in a house. So essentially what you've actually got is where the panels, for instance here, are. Behind the plasterboard, there's a certain resistance value that it will work perfectly within so effectively that energy just basically goes straight through the panel.

Darren Evans: 6:29

And doesn't lose any of its potency as it's traveling through, it loses a little but you'll actually get a little bit of warming.

John Johnson: 6:34

For instance, if you put your hand on the ceiling, it'll be warm, but it won't get to any warmer than around sort of 45, 46 degrees. So that's not where the juice is down, where the juice is, if when the juice is. If you've got a thermal camera and you actually go around the room, what you actually see is everything actually begin to actually heat up and get warm. So the way this system works as well, as opposed to an individual panel is that we actually have about a 30% coverage across the ceiling, so it's an even heat throughout that space, rather than just having it in one particular spot. So how we actually operate is that we do a design of that particular house, each individual room, we do a calculation as to how many watts of heat requirement it is and the way that the system actually is is is designed. Is that that you've got on here? Can I show you this?

John Johnson: 7:21

yeah, yeah so this is it basically. So you'll see, behind here you've actually got effectively what are carbon molecules and a particular behind here you've actually got effectively our carbon molecules and a particular mixture into there. You've got a heat buzz bar here and an electric buzz bar here and one on the other side. So this one's 300 millimetres wide. We do a 500 wide as well, which we use mainly in houses because there's 600 centres between the joists. So we actually buy the heating film in from South Korea, the actual film itself, and it comes on a 75-metre roll.

John Johnson: 7:53

But we have a factory facility over in Hull where we physically manufacture all the panels. So we basically would do a design. So, for instance, if we need 1,200 watts of heat within a particular space, we'd look at all the joist system, go okay, the two meter section, the two meter section, whatever it might be, and we do the design for that. And the beauty of the system is that once we've done that design, it's manufactured, put in a box, the numbers and everything else are actually in place. So the electrician literally just takes it out of the box and actually then locates it into place, connects up all the connectors which is quite simple and straightforward to do goes to a thermostat and effectively, that's the job finished and it's this thin Right.

John Johnson: 8:35

So the actual heating film itself is that thin. This thing on the back here is a reflective insulation. So how that works is it sits on top, just directs any energy out.

Darren Evans: 8:45

this way it is directional anyway, and where's the actual, where's the actual heating coming from? Where's the heating element?

John Johnson: 8:52

effectively, that that is that piece of plastic, that piece of plastic, you see there can I just hold that, yeah sure yeah, so, for those people that are listening, I've got an.

Darren Evans: 9:01

I'll try and find a way of putting a picture somewhere of this, but this is, um, this is like a, a piece of card, in terms of its thickness. It's really it's about.

John Johnson: 9:10

Well, 0.4 of a millimeter.

Darren Evans: 9:12

Okay, so extremely, extremely extremely thin and, um, I guess if I pull this too hard then it's going to break it, right?

John Johnson: 9:19

it's well, you wouldn't actually. I mean, that's just got a sticky on the back, so effectively. That's just connected to the back, but they come in two separate elements really so we actually when we manufacture them. I just thought I'd bring a section in for you.

Darren Evans: 9:28

Yeah, yeah, and just so for the, for those that are watching these, there's this back element that's, uh, that's here and, as you can see, it's, it's, it's super thin. This is, this is super impressive and so, um, where would this and how would this connect up to an energy source that would cause it to?

John Johnson: 9:49

Okay. So if, for instance, on here, what you've actually got is that when we manufacture it, you've actually got effectively cables coming out of here to a T connection, yeah, so, for example, if we were going to heat this space here, we might want I don't know, we'll call it four sections of two meter sections, if you like. So when they're actually put into manufacturing, into place, you've got the cables coming out of here to a T-connector. Then this T-connector connects to that one, to that one, to that one and let's say, your thermostat's on that wall. The last one effectively terminates at your thermostat. So that thermostat, there it's on its own fuse spur and that's your rim done essentially.

John Johnson: 10:29

So these that you see here you've got a live and neutral that is basically connected to that yeah, um, it's a double insulated product as well, so literally I mean you can fit it in a room once you take it out the box.

Darren Evans: 10:40

Take you 20 minutes and this is, and this is all behind the plasterboard.

John Johnson: 10:44

It's all behind the plasterboard so when we're actually fitting it literally sits between the joists. We've got these connectors that basically put it into place. I'm not going to bore you with all the installation.

John Johnson: 10:56

You know, basically first fix. We actually test everything, resistance test all the panels when we manufacture each and every one everyone's tested in factory anyway as well and then we do a resistance test calculation for that entire room so that when the electrician's installing it they can literally run a dry test on it to actually check that everything's connected up properly and the people, the number of uses of it really. But once it's actually in situ, then effectively it's boarded over, another test done because there's no moving parts with it.

John Johnson: 11:25

Effectively just stay, it's just stay, you just work away and that's it.

Darren Evans: 11:28

I guess the only issue will be, if someone comes up with a bright idea to screw something into the ceiling. They need to be aware of where that's actually going absolutely well.

John Johnson: 11:38

I mean, we put a schematic effectively. So we would actually have like a qr code on the consumer unit so the customer can literally click on that. It gives them a design of what's in the house. But the beauty of it is it's about 30% coverage of the ceiling in between these particular sections. There's plenty of room for spotlights if they want to put spotlights in or other things like smoke alarms or whatever else it might be.

John Johnson: 12:00

You know, I think the days of the sort of hanging wicker chair from ceilings tends to actually they might come back in again of hanging wicker chair from ceilings tends to.

Darren Evans: 12:08

Actually, they might come back in again. Who knows, who knows that, with the old christmas decoration maybe. But yeah, you're right. So, um, will that then cause an issue, um of a seating plan or an arrangement within a room, um, where someone is actually in a, should we say, a cold spot or a super hot spot, because they've got that infrared just kind of beaming down on the top of them?

John Johnson: 12:29

well, because it's equally sectioned, if you like, within the ceiling. The beauty of it is it really does. If, if we had it in here and you could take your thermal camera and you actually go around, you'll see the heat. And that comes down to the design. And that comes down to the design and I think also as well, because the system itself doesn't get really hot. It's not designed to get hot. It's designed to impart energy into objects that then release that heat.

John Johnson: 12:52

So everything that you have within this space is actually releasing that heat which is creating the warmth. As an individual, you'll feel it In the same way as you sit out in the sun. If it's a cold day, you can still feel that warmth, but effectively it's actually that overall heat that's actually being released from the objects within that space. And the beauty is as well is that once it gets to temperature, it switches off and then everything slowly releases that heat. So the system itself will actually be on for 10 to 12 minutes in the hour to maintain a temperature, so it's not on all the time. It's very clever clever. We don't own the patents to it. Regretfully, we have the licensing for uk um and uh and northern itle, but I think all of ireland actually, um, but uh, yeah, it's, it's clever stuff you know, and, uh, very competitively priced, you know.

John Johnson: 13:43

So I'm not here to do a pitch of, obviously on this but you know, and I think the other thing is to say that it's a very um, decentralized system. So the idea is that every, pretty much every room within a house has its own thermostat and, as you'd naturally expect, it's all connected to wi-fi on phones, whatever. It might be as well. So easy to control, easy to manage. So if there's bedrooms that you're not using, simply you just would put those on a frost setting, turn them down. If, when you actually come downstairs in the in the day, and if you're actually spending most of your time down here, everything just automatically would then turn down upstairs.

Darren Evans: 14:15

So it's a way of actually managing the space a lot better so have you got this connected onto a similar system as a motion sensitive light? Okay, when walk into a room, it comes on and it's active, but when you walk out or when it doesn't recognise movement for a period of time, it will automatically switch off.

John Johnson: 14:35

You can do that. I think lights are slightly different to heating. Really. It is a reactive system, so it isn't designed to actually be on all the time. So, for example, with an air source system, broadly speaking, they're designed to actually sort of be on all the time. So, for example, with an air source system, broadly speaking, they're designed to actually sort of be on all the time, because it's not about flicking the switch like a boiler and suddenly everything becomes warm, so it keeps the ambient temperature continually, whereas I mean, you know, it will take about half an hour to take a room, let's say, from 14, 15 degrees up to 21. So it still takes a little time to warm it up. Degrees up to year 21, so it still takes a little time to warm it up. Um, but you know it's it's it's it's designed to actually maintain a temperature, which just by clicking on and off or you know, all the time, um, and the key thing is that you're able to actually manage all those different areas.

John Johnson: 15:23

And also the thermostats themselves are really quite clever. I think you know it's. It's like you know, in a car you've got loads of things that you maybe don't use or what have you. And also the thermostats themselves are really quite clever. I think it's like in a car you've got loads of things that you maybe don't use or what have you, and within the thermostat there's a lot of stuff that it does that people generally aren't aware of or don't really use. So, as an example, if I set my heating, let's say, within a particular room, to 21 degrees and within this it can be a bit lower, this sort of old thing of 21 degrees and within this it can be a bit lower, this sort of old thing of 21 degrees tends to be gas central heating systems where you've actually got one thermostat in the hallway and that's what you're using. You know to program it so. But let's say it's 20, 21 degrees, now I'm not going to feel much of a reduction in temperature, let's say, for two degrees. So if I actually set it so that it will click back on again by getting to, let's say, 19, then it'll come and warm it back up again.

John Johnson: 16:10

A lot of other systems will actually sort of just be literally like this all the time, but that's not the way to actually basically get get the best efficiency out of them as a consumer. So if you can't really feel that sort of two degree drop or in some cases a three degree drop. It doesn't take a lot to get it warmed back up again. But you'll save a big chunk of money by actually managing what the thermostat can do for you. Um, so you know, they're all sort of wi-fi connected as well and what have you. So they're quite easy to actually sort of manage. You can even set it up so that when you're actually, you know, driving home if you're, I don't know a mile away, certain things can actually come on and off in the house, and what have you.

John Johnson: 16:45

It provides the sort of setting for an ecosystem, really, because all the thermostats are actually connected to a gateway and the gateway can enable then someone to actually add smart lighting or security systems or smart door locking systems or whatever else they actually want to actually include.

John Johnson: 17:03

We find that for new builders they've got a lot to deal with anyway, so kitchens and tiles and bathrooms and all the rest of it, so doing an awful lot of that stuff. But what we're actually sort of, you know, saying is look, it's smart enabled. So if the customer at a later date wants to actually sort of go and actually add bits too, then they can actually go and add bits too, and we don't lock the system down. You know, we we work with a company called tuya tuya. They manage a smart life app and they manage all these other things, so they're really the hand in the glove for a lot of that smart tech stuff, even the stuff that some companies try and sell off as being groovy and expensive it ain't you know it's just the prettier end of the market, um, but essentially, you know they, they, they've got contracts with the likes of GE Electric and Philips and whatever it might be of making the chips that actually can manage all this stuff properly.

Darren Evans: 17:53

So how does this technology show up in a SAP calculation? How would that be reported?

John Johnson: 17:59

Okay, so essentially, currently at least, it's basically just actually rated 100% efficient, as with all other electric heating systems. The only thing that's different to that is, of course, an air source heat pump, so any electric heating systems, it's all the same currently.

Darren Evans: 18:13

So in SAP you're going to see Sorry. So in SAP this is going to be judged exactly the same as a panel wall heater, Correct. But the technology is very, very different. Absolutely, the feel of it is very, very different. Absolutely the feel of it is very, very different and the cost is different.

John Johnson: 18:28

Yeah yeah, this is more costly than a panel wall heater.

Darren Evans: 18:33

But I mean I'll give you sort of a. So I guess what I'm talking about is the running cost as opposed to the installation cost.

John Johnson: 18:36

Oh, the running costs are a fraction of a convective wall heater. Absolutely.

Darren Evans: 18:42

But you're not then getting a full representation or an accurate representation of how it's actually performing in the building. No not at all. So how do you bridge that then, when you're working with the likes of Lovell and they're inputting that for the SAP calculation, for them to pass building regulations, or even as you look forward to the future home standard, or how is that being?

John Johnson: 19:09

overcome by okay. So I'll give you an example, really. So we've just done some calcs on one of the level houses. So in most cases, not all if they were going to put a gas boiler in now, they'd need to put some solar panels on the roof not in all, I think, but in most, yeah, yeah, okay. So essentially all we've done is to actually put this in and also an air source hot water cylinder. So a combination of an air source hot water cylinder, this type of heating system, with actually, in this particular case I think it required 1.5 kilowatt peak of the solar pv system, but I think it was two that they were already actually planning on putting on the roof and that that got them an 85B on an EPC. So it passed the regulations. No problem at all.

John Johnson: 19:51

Now, from a cost management point of view for the customer, if you like, then you know they don't have to service whatever the system is, annually. You know they can actually manage their heating requirement within each individual zone. In this particular house type, there was nine zones in there, so it performs really quite well. You know, I think that at the moment there's obviously an awful lot of promotion, if you like, of air source systems. But we're actually sort of proving to people look, we'll work with the SAP Assessors. You know, we're a bit of a different company in the sense that we're not manufacturing something and then actually selling it to a merchant, selling it to an installer who's actually you know, that's not our operation. So we are the sort of developer, stroke, manufacturer of the system and we're talking to the, you know, technical directors of level and we're having those conversations and in third party we're then actually having conversations with our SAP assessors. So in that triangle we're actually saying, okay, well, what if we do this, or what if we do that, or how can we do this or what have you? So we've been been doing that for the last sort of two and a half three years, really, darren, and it's proved to be very useful.

John Johnson: 20:59

I think, certainly from our point of view, you know, from a developmental point of two and a half three years really, darren, and it's proved to be very useful, I think, certainly from our point of view, you know, from a developmental point of view. And actually, what does it look like on site? You know, someone's got to install this stuff. You know, how are we going to make it life easy for them, you know so. Hence, you know literally doing the design, numbering everything up so they can literally open a box. Go, oh, here we go, and it's like literally a bit of a Meccano putting it together and you know, a qualified electrician can quite happily just do that job very simply and easily. We wanted to make life simpler really, and that's very much around. You know what we're about.

John Johnson: 21:32

So, with regards to, you know, getting through the current SAP regulations, I mean that particular illustration I've given you there was actually on 13 regs 2013 regulations because the house had actually obviously had the foundations in quite some time before. So you know, but we've actually run similar exercises with 10.2. We've started to try and actually get an understanding of what's actually in the home energy model. You know I've downloaded the beta test, had a little look at that. I'm not a SAP assessor, you know. I did actually basically qualify as a dea when I was with vibrant. I thought while I was there, I may as well. You know, I'm sitting in on the courses anyway. Um, but, uh, but I'm not a sap assessor.

John Johnson: 22:11

So, but we work very closely with assessors to try and get a sense of actually what's coming down the track some of the things that appear to be apparent and that sounds like a bit of a you know contrary, but um, one of the things that it says in there is that they're going to measure operative temperature, which effectively is the radiant element as well as the space heating element. We're not quite sure how that's will impact on this, but we think it'd be beneficial. In addition to that, when we do a design, we can actually design it to the watt really, so we can actually work out what's the performance of that house. It requires in the living room 1224 watts of heat and we can actually divide that back and actually work out exactly how many linear meters are required and we design it accordingly. What tends to happen again, you know, in comparison to, let's say, the air source system, is that that might be a seven kilowatt system to be on the safe side.

John Johnson: 23:04

So within the home energy model there's going to be, part of it is actually giving an exact as to what systems going in. So I'll be honest, you know, none of us, I don't think, really understand exactly what the implications of all of that is or what it's going to be, but I really don't believe that the government are that naive, just to say there's going to be one type of heating system in all these houses, um, and there's another or other people that you know have got their own types of system as well, whether or not it's actually infrared panels, whether or not it's this, whether it's other types of you know storage heater type systems. There's a whole variety of different you know systems, systems that a company can choose from, and I guess that companies will find their favorites and what works for them.

Darren Evans: 23:44

I think you're exactly right. You know, there's people that I've spoken to over the last probably year and a half where they've said look, we need to go down air source, Air source is the way. Sometimes they've used the word grain source, but effectively they're saying the same thing.

Darren Evans: 23:58

Yeah sure and I've said no, that's actually not the way. There is no silver bullet here that the government or anyone else is presenting, and so I think that the point that you've made there is just to show the listeners and the viewers out there that there is another alternative that's extremely viable. Um, that is being used by a major developer. Um, and I think that level were really quite um active in the social housing space as well.

John Johnson: 24:32

They are indeed, yeah sure you know, and, um, as I said, I mean you know, I first met with them probably getting over three, three and a half years ago, you know. So they were looking at this very much earlier than most of the companies.

John Johnson: 24:44

And yeah, I mean Ian Gillis, who's the technical guy up in Durham. There he's been amazing and you need to have that sort of relationship. You can't actually develop and really begin to understand the market and what the requirements are in a vacuum. You've got to speak to the stakeholders in there and obviously you know there's ian's point as to what he's looking to achieve. There's other people within the company and there's a guy that's actually on the ground, their contractor. You know who's going to fit it, how's it going to? How's that going to work? You know how's this. So we've been through all of that trawl to actually develop something that really addresses all of that and and actually just tries to make it as simple and straightforward as possible.

Darren Evans: 25:23

You know good well, john, I think that now we're in a good position to go into the demolition zone start talking about myths and start busting them. Yeah, you ready, yeah, absolutely sure so we're back and we're in the demolition zone and you have created this piece of uh, this, this fantastic I use the word frequently and that's why I'm hesitating piece of art. Probably I should use that word because it is an artistic piece. I think that you have used every single block that we've, that we've given you.

John Johnson: 25:58

I think I have. I left out the animals. I thought it was inappropriate to include the animals, and you've left the eye as well. I've left the eye out as well, yeah, yeah.

Darren Evans: 26:08

So predominantly here it looks as though there are three, sorry, two predominant towers on a structure which is kind of fairly low level and a number of other kind of low rise and medium rise towers. But what? Does it represent.

John Johnson: 26:25

Well, I think it just represents complication really, and not so much confusion but complication. You know, what we've always been about is to try and simplify really, and it seems that the market, certainly the construction market, seems to think that it has to be complicated for it to work, and it's proved that it's just not the case, you know. You know, central heating technology was developed really in about 1850 I think, the first air source system 1855, I think westinghouse actually developed the first residential air source system in 1948 or something like that. So so these are old technologies. They've actually been developed and improved over time, but where you're looking at sort of a step change to actually how we build houses, I find it really confusing to actually then use what is old technology, improved indeed, but not actually sort of looking at well, how else can we do this? You know, do we need to have radiators? You know people hate radiators. Why would we have bigger radiators? Because we've actually put, you know, an air source system in that has a flow temperature which is significantly less than it needs to be for a smaller radiator, as well as just the complexity. I mean, I've looked in, you know, where you've actually got the hot water system and it looks like something out of a NASA space station where you've got pipes coming out and everything else and it's just really complicated and, honestly, it just doesn't need to be. So I think that you know.

John Johnson: 27:51

The myth to me is is the fact that you know you can build simple, really, and still very elegantly, because you get rid of a load of the nonsense that crowns the space and you'll meet the regs, you know, and it'll be easier for your guys to install and it will cost your customers less money, because you know these systems are, you know, very sophisticated in how they actually operate, give you autonomy over the whole of the property, um, and you know, reduce your costs no service costs, no ongoing. You know additional trauma with all of that, um. So yeah, I I think that you know what my myth is really that life doesn't have to be that complicated. There's, there's technology around.

John Johnson: 28:34

This stuff's been around for quite some time. You know it's been widespread on the continent for the last 15, 20 years. You know it hasn't reached these shores, mainly because we're just happy with gas. You know things are changing now and I think you know whether or not it's actually government, whether or not it's actually the bodies that sit behind them as well, are tasked, you know, rather than just listening to the lobbyists, you know, and the people that are actually been making boilers for years, that are now pivoting into making air source systems or other similar systems, look for simplicity, you know. It doesn't have to be complicated, it doesn't have to be expensive and, um and I think that that's my myth I love that there is absolute beauty in simplicity, absolutely Um but uh, but that's great.

Darren Evans: 29:18

Well, when you're ready're ready, john, you can just destroy that.

John Johnson: 29:22

There's a lot of bits to actually destroy. I feel very relaxed now. Good, good, you got that off the table literally with a swipe of the hand that's.

Darren Evans: 29:36

That's. That's really good, john John. I just wonder, just the last bit of time that we've got together, if you have any advice for somebody that is looking to make a difference with the way that they operate or live in a home. What advice would you give to them In?

John Johnson: 29:55

an existing home.

Darren Evans: 29:56

Yeah, an existing home, yeah sure.

John Johnson: 29:59

Well, you know, as far as I would say, is that a lot of new houses tend to have sort of quite good programming. Even if it's a gas-centred heating system, yeah, and no one tends to use it, you know, equally, you know we might have nine thermostats in a house. That handover process, if it's going to be a new home, has got to be so that the client understands it. And I think, whether or not it's a new house or you're moving into an existing property, understand how it works. You know you've got a thermostat there. It might be one of these. You know nest systems or whatever it might be. Figure it out, because it'll save you a fortune. So, yeah, I think, figure that out and you'll save some money.

John Johnson: 30:41

There's lots of other things that you can do with regards to rainwater harvesting or with regards to actually ensuring your insulation is as good as it can be, and so on and so forth, but you know, it's only when it starts to pinch, I think, people begin to actually get really concerned about energy consumption. You know, the last couple of years have been quite brutal for a variety of reasons really, as to energy prices going up. So, obviously, people years have been quite brutal for a variety of reasons really as to energy prices going up. So obviously people have had an eye on it. Maybe they've settled a little bit and kind of got used to it. But don't get used to it, you know. Go and figure out how your house works and then that way you'll save energy, save money and actually make your contribution, probably without doing too much. You can still go on your holidays and everything else you know.

Darren Evans: 31:18

So are you currently working on a retrofit version of? Yeah, we have a retrofit version.

John Johnson: 31:23

I think that what tends to happen, darren, with the projects that we do, it tends to be back to brick kind of retrofit, with its apartments or whatever it might be. You know we've got 13 apartments going in Scarborough, a 50-room HMO in Hull, you know, at the moment. So they tend to be part of a project really, um, if you've got a house, then yes, you could. You know, essentially it's as simple as actually cross-patterning the ceilings, making the channels. You know calling we can, we can do all of that so that's about lowering the ceiling height slightly, correct?

Darren Evans: 31:52

yeah?

John Johnson: 31:53

sure you know and effectively, but it's. But it's a bigger job to do that. You know. If it's actually part of a refurb, it's not a problem. It's simple as, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend someone to put this technology in if they're actually, if you've got a gas-sandwich heating system in and they're quite happy with what they do, because it'd be messy, very doable.

Darren Evans: 32:13

But this is more of an alternative to air source heat pumps. Ground source heat pump Indeed.

John Johnson: 32:20

Yeah, absolutely Electric, only Electric heating systems. And I think that you know we've done many houses that they've basically just been refurbing the house. You know they bought a house, they've extended it, they've done this, that and the other they want to rip everything out, change the system. You know what have you Done? Loads of those, you know. But I think you know if if anyone's sort of sat there thinking I just want to just change the system, then you know it's, it's part of a bigger job really.

Darren Evans: 32:43

So so yeah, you know, but I love the idea, I love the concept, I love the passion that you have for it and the impact that it has. And, you know, I wish you well with the things that you're doing with Lovell, and I'm sure there's other organizations that you are or will be working with in the future.

John Johnson: 33:00

Yeah, we've got talks with numerous organizations, you know, but it's very much consulting with them. You know it's a different. You know for many of them they don't necessarily clearly have a route to understanding. You know some really sort of, you know, very switched on individuals. You know technical directors, so on and so forth. They do their job in what they do, but this is a collaboration of actually either manufacture design, then, as I say, right the way through that supply chain is to actually, you know, how are we going to get this in? Who's going to be responsible for that bit? You know, so we've got to understand everything in this. So it's not just a matter of actually making some panels and going to a merchant and saying, go and sell these.

John Johnson: 33:44

You know, we've taken a very different approach which, in its way and we probably only realized, I don't know, in the last year in odd, really that how disruptive we are being. You know, uh, the little old us. You know we're not a big team and then we're up against some of these, you know, big or powerful. You know international companies, um, and their model is very much, you know, merchant, installer, whatever it might be. So we're cutting right across all of that, um, and it's really because we want to know, we want to develop that relationship so we can really assist them. You know, and um, yeah, sometimes you sort of think it's quite a lot to bite really, but, um, but it's pleasant and I think we will make a difference well, john, keep disrupting keep doing your thing and, uh, thanks for coming on the podcast today and, uh, it's been great to have you.

John Johnson: 34:35

Yeah, thank you, darren. Thank you very much indeed.