Giulia Papi: 0:00

My journey into construction is not your usual one. I didn't study engineering, I didn't do an apprenticeship, none of that. I was finishing my second year of uni of economics, statistics and maths Because of the economic side of things, which I enjoyed. I enjoyed learning about it, but the idea of going into finance as a career terrified me. But for some reason, the careers person that was helping me from uni said oh yeah, you should try and get an internship in investment banking. It's really competitive though, but yeah, you should try that. So I applied to maybe 70 73 different internships.

Darren Evans: 0:33

Got rejected by all of them.

Giulia Papi: 0:36

Yes, rejections yes, but it's probably also my fault, because I wasn't passionate about getting this investment banking or finance internship whatsoever, because I didn't know what I was investment banking or finance internship whatsoever, because I didn't know what I was meant to do. I was just told I should do it, so I tried. So I didn't know what to write in my cover letters. I didn't know how to structure my CV because trial and error, mostly error, mainly error, only error. And then I got an email from the careers website of the university and they were advertising this marketing internship at index and I never even considered marketing as a career either and I just opened the. I just opened the job description because I was like marketing summer job, internship. It's gonna look good on my CV.

Giulia Papi: 1:16

At least I did something this summer. I think I'm creative, I'm I'm pretty good at copywriting, let's go for it. And I did my internship, got along really well with the boys. They were like, oh, do you want to stay on? I was like, yeah, sure. So I did my first two years at Index in marketing and then I was finishing my master's in machine learning and data science and that's what I do now. I do data intelligence at Index.

Giulia Papi: 1:41

So you merge marketing and data intelligence yes, but internally I leverage data to improve our marketing performance, but externally we have built a power bi environment where clients can. That clients can access directly within our platform and then they get all the insights in real time from the usage of all of the index tools.

Darren Evans: 2:05

So what is index and why do they exist?

Giulia Papi: 2:09

Index is a workforce management system, so we will digitize all the processes on your usual construction sites, from inductions and time management, access control, facial recognition, you name it, we've got it. And all the way to the health and safety management side of things, your near misses, your incident reports, observations, inspections the permits tool is actually the latest one we have released.

Darren Evans: 2:34

What is it, though, that you're trying to achieve as an organisation?

Giulia Papi: 2:37

So Index as a company well, should I say Index as an idea spurred from the minds of George and Aaron, obviously the co-founders. They went to uni together and that's how they know each other. They were really good friends. And after uni, both civil engineers they went and George was working with a main contractor site management side of things, or maybe even project management, I can't remember. Anyway, he was working with a main contractor site management side of things, or maybe even project management, I can't remember. Anyway, he was working with a main contractor. He was actually on Bond Street Station for the Elizabeth line and Aaron went more down the subcontractor side of things. He worked at Severfield as a site engineer.

Giulia Papi: 3:20

They were both frustrated with the lack of streamlining and the fragmented processes that they were experiencing on site. Like, for example, george's first day on site. He sat in a room filling out paperwork and doing his induction for the whole working day, so the whole eight hours that he was on site for, and he didn't even realize how much time had passed. He was like, right, can I get on site now? I was like no, your day's done, come back tomorrow. He was shocked by the amount of people that were on site and he just quickly calculated in his head like, if I had to do this and they're paying me this much on average, they are spending this much money and wasting this much time just on doing inductions. I can't believe that there isn't a better way of doing it. And that's when he phoned Aaron and was like shall we do something about it?

Darren Evans: 4:05

And here we are, and so fast forward to now. What impact are they having now on the whole industry?

Giulia Papi: 4:10

Well, I guess that it depends which individual you're considering in the supply chain, because what Index aims to do is connect the whole supply chain, and they effectively do it from the end user. Let's call them the people on the ground that use the app day to day to record all the all the incidents and perform all the inspections. To the project manager that then goes into the platform and oversees the project progress. To the end client that can also monitor progress and can have access to all the statistics that they need to then go and win more contracts and win more work.

Giulia Papi: 4:46

In terms of like actual evidence, we've got clients that have completely halved their site admin team because everything is digitized. There's no more data entry, no more scanning, no more actual like filling out paperwork or filling forms out from paperwork onto a computer. Filling out paperwork or filling forms out from paperwork onto a computer and I'll let you work out how much money that is over a year for one project. And if you imagine these companies have 30, 20, 50 projects at once, that is a huge amount of money saved. And in terms of time, people are more productive because there's less time wasted doing mundane things like paperwork. Again, our aim is to make all of our clients completely paperless, because we believe that we actually serve the whole suite of things that they need to become paperless and independent and autonomous and successful.

Giulia Papi: 5:39

Your induction that took eight or maybe two hours, if they're really really fast on paper you will actually do before you get on site, and so you you create your profile on index. That becomes your construction passport. You have your details, your job, role, your competency cards, everything is verified automatically. You go through your induction presentation. Maybe you're on the train on the way to site and that's it.

Darren Evans: 6:04

Get to site, sign in, get to work and I guess that is going to be more impactful for the actual person wanting to work on site as well. Right, they're not sat around well in paperwork.

Giulia Papi: 6:14

This that they feel is just a waste of their time yeah, exactly, it's, uh, obviously more stimulating because you notice that you are more productive. We've heard a lot of good feedback also on the UX UI interface of our app, saying that it's very user-friendly.

Darren Evans: 6:31

So UX UI just help me understand that User experience and user interface.

Giulia Papi: 6:36

So, the way the app feels and looks, how easy it is to do things on the app.

Giulia Papi: 6:39

Yeah, we usually get very good feedback on how easy it is for people to learn how to use it, and I think the boys, george and Aaron, feel so strongly about their mission that their energy is contagious, not only for us and the whole team behind them, because we are all 100%, all in, bought into the mission and we're on the journey with them, and I think that's also what makes us work really good as a team, but the same energy we're able to share with our clients, and then every client organization will eventually end up having one or two or multiple index champions and they will be, let's say, the brand ambassadors within the contractor or subcontractor organization and everyone will go to them with index issues and they'll be like their index oracle and I think that's that's super cool you mentioned that you got into the industry by accident.

Darren Evans: 7:30

You mentioned that you got on well and you've referred to them as boys, so I guess what you meant there is the founders yes sounds like you got on really well with them.

Giulia Papi: 7:37

If, um, if that's how you're referring to I mean yeah, I mean I've been at index four years now and now, You're part of the furniture, yeah exactly that's maybe why they're not getting rid of me yet. That's good.

Darren Evans: 7:49

How did you find it, just generally speaking, though, in a fairly male-dominated or a very male-dominated industry?

Giulia Papi: 7:56

I definitely want to see more women representation in construction.

Darren Evans: 8:00

Why is that?

Giulia Papi: 8:00

Because I think obviously equal opportunities is a trend and everyone wants to. I don't know if you can call it pinkwashing People that say, oh yeah, we hire women, we value women, women in construction, but then the percentage of women in construction is still 10% or just over 10%, and when I joined it was almost 10%. So what are we doing wrong? Me personally, I don't think I've struggled massively with the fact that we're a minority, mainly because my personality I get on well with with men and I'm very head-on, very resilient and I don't take things to heart. I have some episodes of that. I have that have happened to me, of that we that are like a demonstration that there should be more women in construction.

Giulia Papi: 8:49

This is a funny anecdote. Actually it was, uh, maybe a couple years ago. I go to a networking event near here. Actually, I get there I'm the only girl and I'm gonna give this guy the benefit of the doubt because I was fairly like I've got had fairly plain outfit on black jeans, white t-shirt, plain, no, nothing like sneakers. Um, I'm looking around the room trying to see if I see any familiar faces or anyone that I might start a conversation with. Mind you, I was terrified, like this was one of my first mixers as well so.

Giulia Papi: 9:19

I was. I was very nervous and, looking around, someone taps me on the shoulder and it's this broad, bald, bald middle-aged man not me. I would have remembered and he just I turned around and I'm like hello. And he goes, oh can, can you grab me a coffee please? And I was like this guy really thinks I'm the waitress. And I told him no, I don't make coffee here, but we can talk about machine learning if you want and he was like mortified and yeah, that's.

Giulia Papi: 9:45

That's my funniest story to date and so how did that?

Darren Evans: 9:48

how did that make you feel? Because I can. I can see two people interpreting that interaction in two different ways one getting really quite angry and the other one finding it quite amusing.

Giulia Papi: 9:58

I thought it was hilarious, but I think that also ultimately comes down to the person, like to the individual. It's also got to do with your own perception of yourself, your self-esteem and I'm a person that outside of work has a really low self-esteem, but for some reason, when it comes to like my professional development and what I can bring to a team and what I know how to do and I know that I do it well I feel quite unstoppable.

Darren Evans: 10:26

So it seems like when you come to work, you put your game face on and you completely change it seems like when you come to work, you put your game face on and you completely change.

Giulia Papi: 10:31

Yes, yes, and it served me right and it's worked for me so far, so I don't see any reason to change. I do, however, get home sometimes and just cry.

Darren Evans: 10:39

You do.

Giulia Papi: 10:40

No, but just that's because I've stopped being so strong. 5 pm hits and I'm like, OK, time to be vulnerable again.

Darren Evans: 10:46

We've spoken a couple of times and you've mentioned your fear of being average yes, you've done your homework again.

Giulia Papi: 10:53

You've got on linkedin, have you?

Darren Evans: 10:55

what, um? What does average look like to you and why are you, why are you afraid of being average?

Giulia Papi: 11:00

first of all, I've always I've lived in a few different places, like um. I'm italian, obviously, but I grew up in tenerife and then from tenerife I came here to lond, london, and I've always come across people in all of these beautiful places where I've always enjoyed myself. I've always had a beautiful life where I didn't miss anything. I never had to make any sacrifices like in terms, like material sacrifices. I've always lived a very comfortable life. My parents always gave me everything I needed and I'm very grateful for that and I used to go to school with people that had the same lifestyle as me.

Giulia Papi: 11:34

And still today in London, people that I work with, or maybe friends they keep complaining about their life and they're trapped in jobs that they don't like, or maybe at the time they were studying a subject that they didn't like, and I don't understand how people let that happen to themselves.

Giulia Papi: 11:52

Like I wake up every day and I want to work, and that doesn't mean that work is my life, because then I sign off at the end of the day and I go and do my things and I'm happy. But I guess being average to me is that like grey box that everyone thinks an office job is and a lot of people make it that for themselves and, yeah, I guess, maybe, maybe I need constant stimulation, which I get. I work in a startup, everything is happening all the time, but yeah, and I guess that when you have that drive to not be average or this is how I see it anyway you continue, continue to strive for greatness, which is a curse and a blessing at the same time, because whilst you continue to achieve great things, you never actually stop and let yourself enjoy it fully.

Darren Evans: 12:39

How does that show up for you?

Giulia Papi: 12:40

Even like wins at work. We solve an issue that we've had for quite a long time, or I figure out how to improve a certain workflow, or something as minimal or as big as you want it to be, I go okay, that's done. What, what's now? What do I have to do now? What's next? I don't let myself be like well done, you couldn't do this a week ago and now you've done it.

Darren Evans: 13:02

I'm interested now just to kind of talk about um the connection that you have with racing and the love and fondness that you have for F1.

Giulia Papi: 13:10

Yes, my dad's.

Darren Evans: 13:11

That came from your dad.

Giulia Papi: 13:13

Yes, so my dad has had a brilliant career in motorsport, which sadly, had already ended when I was born. But my brother got to live through all of it and I'm very jealous of him. I often joke and say that I should have been born before him, so he should be the smaller sibling, not me. But obviously my dad has maintained all these connections from his past career throughout and he's introduced me to people, he's taken me to places, even though he left the racing scene.

Giulia Papi: 13:45

We still go to races these days and we're in the paddock and people stop him and ask him for pictures and, yeah, it's just insane to see these days. And we're in the paddock and people stop him and ask him for pictures and uh, yeah, it's just insane to see, and I think the figure and the not character that's not the right word because it sounds like a caricature but the presence that my dad has had throughout his life onto the world. I guess I want that for myself, if better, and that's also what motivates me to continue doing what I'm doing and being who I am.

Darren Evans: 14:16

So a sense of competition.

Giulia Papi: 14:18

Yes, and it's so weird because at the same time, I'm always competing with myself, but at the same time, I'm competing with the idea that I have of my father, and it's not that I have issues with him. We have a beautiful relationship and he's probably along my mom. They're the people that shaped me into the person that I am today. Personality-wise, I think I am very similar with my dad, but it's healthy competition, let's say. It's not a desperate need to impress, and I think that's why the person that I am is sustainable and I don't tend to burn out, even though I get tired, like everyone, because I'm a human and not a machine. But I think, yeah, it is quite sustainable.

Darren Evans: 14:57

And what would you say were some of the kind of key attributes that you got from living in, and you didn't say this, but I'll kind of refer to as a competitive household because to and the reason I say that is to achieve that level that he's achieved. You need to as a competitive household because to and the reason I say that is to achieve that level that he's achieved.

Giulia Papi: 15:13

You need to be definitely competitive but also focused on an outcome yeah, I think the mindset of wanting to be a high achiever has been ingrained into into my, into my personality since a young age. The competitiveness also. I used to be a competitive swimmer for 15 years and then I stopped um due to covid and I used to go training twice a day, so my day started at 5am and bless my mom for driving me to training all of those years at 5am. I wouldn't have done it like it's insane and yeah, always trying to chase that millisecond and shaving off your time so that you can get regionals and then to nationals and then so that's interesting that you didn't take a professional career in swimming or in sport in some way oh, absolutely not.

Giulia Papi: 16:03

I'm no, nowhere near as good to do that, and also I I knew that I was gonna be able to to do other stuff and I had other interests.

Giulia Papi: 16:11

Like my parents never forced me to excel in sports. It was rather a thing that kept me healthy and a way to socialize, and I think that's a lot healthier. I would never enforce anything on my kid hypothetical kid or kids, I don't know but yeah, I think I've seen a lot of my teammates that then went on and tried or even kick-started their career as professional athletes. I left Tenerife six years ago and there are no athletes anymore and now they're struggling to find a place in uni. They're struggling to find a proper job.

Darren Evans: 16:43

I think there's only so many Michael Phelps in history and yeah, Going back to the construction industry, what is it that you think that the industry is in desperate need of at this moment in time? Where do I start? Whatever you like.

Giulia Papi: 16:58

I think, and that kind of aligns with the mission that Index are trying to achieve consistently and throughout. What we do on our daily basis is we know that there is an ongoing skill crisis. People are struggling to get people, and construction can't continue and can't evolve without the people. So we either need to make the industry more attractive, to make new talent, young people, not only graduates, but people that are like, maybe in their late 20s, 30s and want a career change. No one ever considers construction and I think because the younger generation is a bit shy towards the construction industry and the built environment as a whole. We are failing to also get the digital skills that contractors, subcontractors and all client and all different organization needs to boost their performance and continue to win jobs, and this year has been disastrous.

Darren Evans: 17:52

So many companies have gone under because they couldn't optimize their costs, and they were probably, if you look at it, most of them were still using a paper-based method so it sounds like you feel the same as what I, which is the construction industry as a whole, is lacking adopting current technology, or even future technology, or technology that points to the future.

Giulia Papi: 18:20

Yes, but I think you can take it even one step back, and I think the construction industry has always been so resistant, almost scared of change, and so I don't know if it's because of the general demographic, because, let's face it, the construction industry is statistically an older construction, in terms of people that work in it, than tech itself.

Darren Evans: 18:42

Predominantly male, predominantly over the age of 50.

Giulia Papi: 18:45

And it's hard to blame people for not wanting to become more digitally knowledgeable. But, at the same time, all of these people that are so resistant to change and they are in a position of power now and they dictate where the money goes and they dictate what resources get employed to do which job, I think is the reason why we are, as an industry, one of the least technologically advanced. Because, yes, all these people have been in their current job position for maybe over 20 years and you will try and show them that there is a better way to do things and they'll be like oh, but I've always done it like this and it's worked, so why should I change now? And the same people saying that are the same people that are maybe one to two to five years away from retirement, so they don't have the incentive to leave anything better behind. Because, also, I think that there is a lack of perception of legacy.

Darren Evans: 19:39

What do you mean by that?

Giulia Papi: 19:40

No one is motivated to let the new generation take a step further and become those figures of power that the industry so desperately needs. And I guess when all of these people end up retiring, the construction industry will be left with minimal to no progress made to like when you compare it to today, and it's scary to think that we will have to not only boost what we're trying to build but rebuild over these foundations of still paper-based methods and fear of progression.

Darren Evans: 20:14

It was a phrase that I heard not too long ago, which is the system is designed to protect the system. I don't mean the system from a governmental point of view or anything from anything more than when you've got something that inadvertent commas works and it works for you, then the whole system you create is set around maintaining that system that currently works for you. So the desire for you to break that system that works for you and go and do something different that could work better for you is not going to work, because you've created a system to protect that initial system but that is also like a paradox.

Giulia Papi: 20:50

What you just said, when all these people are preaching about circular economy, isn't that the same concept? So why is circular economy okay, but this isn't? Why can't the two go hand in hand? They can. You're just too afraid to admit it to yourself that if you change something in your daily operation, then that might just happen by itself. Yeah, like, I think tech in general, when applied to the construction industry, is sold as tech, and I think that is what scares people, because when I think of tech, or when people think of tech, maybe they think about Google, apple and all of these big organizations that feel cold and they feel almost like not personality less, what's the word?

Darren Evans: 21:30

Soulless.

Giulia Papi: 21:31

Yes, that's the one, Soulless. Yes, that's the one soulless, and it's. It's hard to relate to something like that, no matter how good or how useful or how revolutionary it can be. When you, when you present a product to to a person by showing its value straight away, that's half your sale done, and I think that's a technique that we could adapt in the construction tech environment as a whole to potentially make this journey of change a bit less scary for people.

Darren Evans: 21:57

You mentioned about when the current generational leaders retire, that the void that that will create at the back end is quite scary. What do you think the answer to that is?

Giulia Papi: 22:08

I think, start preparing the new generation for what they're going to have to overcome, what they're going to have to manage. Start upskilling them straight away. We've not, we've realized that because of the skills crisis, it's hard to get other people, so we should upskill the ones that we already have, and otherwise there's going to be an exodus of professionals outside of the construction industry to other industries, where they are not necessarily better paid but they are more valued. And I know that to stay motivated in a job at least for me, value is a huge thing, because I could never work for a multinational or like a big international corporation where I would just be a number, and while that can't be everyone obviously not everyone cannot be a number, because we need big organizations to drive the economy. I think upskilling not only practically but also leadership. Leadership is a module that I think needs to be cultivated in construction, and there's a whole other conversation that we could have around that.

Darren Evans: 23:08

So let's go there really quickly. What would three standout attributes be of a good leader?

Giulia Papi: 23:14

Empathy, because a leader is a person that understands the people behind him that drive him and the team to success. It's probably too niche, but at this day and age you have to know your data, no matter how deeply or how shallow your data knowledge is, but you have to have some sort of data knowledge. And a third one resilience, because and I think that goes hand in hand with empathy because when you're a resilient individual, you get to see that it's okay to make mistakes. You're able to see the glass half full even when it's empty. And if you are a resilient individual as a leader, then people will follow by example and that will also solidify a team in itself.

Darren Evans: 24:02

What advice would you give to, say, a 60-year-old CEO of a mid-size or maybe even large corporation in the construction industry to try and implement some of those things that you're talking about?

Giulia Papi: 24:15

From a technical point of view. Stop thinking generative AI will solve all your problems. There is a lot more tech, a lot more useful and better suited to your problems than just AI. Ai has been a huge buzzword this year and while I come from like an AI background and I'm all into all that stuff, it's just gone overboard. It's out of control.

Darren Evans: 24:39

So do you think that a 60-odd-year-old CEO would be into AI and kind of thinking that way?

Giulia Papi: 24:45

It's definitely because it's such a buzzword. I think they're kind of forced to follow suit and find out more and then try to fit AI or like any other similar solution into their puzzle. That is their problem. But it's like putting a cube into a round hole and, from an emotional point of view, would you treat your employees like? Would you treat your kids, your siblings, your family? The same way you maybe value or treat your employees?

Darren Evans: 25:16

You are an influencer, and I've seen a post that you put on LinkedIn, something along the lines of hey mom, I've made it, I'm an influencer.

Giulia Papi: 25:26

Oh God, that is actually quite old now, but I don't care. I still earned the bragging rights until I, until I die. Old now, but I don't care, I still earned the bragging rights until I until I die. No, it was almost a year ago now. I entered the National Federation of Builders top 100 women in construction awards and, even though I didn't end up actually winning the awards at the end of the night, I was still in that top 100 and yeah, it was. It was a very good moment for me and for the team as well. Everyone supported me massively and, yeah, like I said, I still like that. People recognize it today, even though it's been so long.

Darren Evans: 26:04

What is it that an influencer does, then, in this industry? Because when I look and think about influencers, I'm thinking more along the lines of clothes, branding, makeup, potentially houses, cars.

Giulia Papi: 26:17

I think in construction specifically, but, like I guess a LinkedIn influencer is a lot different than an Instagram or a TikTok influencer. At the same time, just because the platform and the audience is different people with different interests completely my personal perspective of what I would like people to see me as is someone that they can come to for advice, whose advice they'll actually take. My friends say I give really good advice, so why not? And at the end of the day, even if I inspire one, one girl or one woman that maybe is in school now or is in uni now to take the leap and try and make a career for herself in construction, at the end of the day, I'm happy. I'm not there for people like. I'm not out there with the intention of getting noticed. I'm just very passionate about what I do and no matter what the industry is, it just happens to be construction.

Giulia Papi: 27:09

I would want that for other people. So if I can help them, then yeah, so be it. My dms are open. You've done mentoring construction. I would want that for other people. So if I can help them, then yes, so be it. My DMs are open.

Darren Evans: 27:15

You've done mentoring.

Giulia Papi: 27:16

No, but I would like to.

Giulia Papi: 27:19

I was actually interested and I got recruited, let's say, by Women in Data for their Girls in Data program, where they go and speak to young girls in schools that are maybe about to start their GCSEs or they're about to start their A-level journey to try and not showcase because we're not trying to show off anything, but just to raise awareness about the possibilities of building a career in data. And as a woman in data and also a woman in construction, I think putting the two together becomes very powerful, and it goes back to what I just said about even one girl wanting to do like um.

Darren Evans: 27:56

a career in construction after will be a huge achievement for me I'm kind of putting those two together and they both seem like quite male dominated um industries kind of a data techie person male. Construction industry dominated male. Would you agree with that?

Giulia Papi: 28:13

Construction definitely. We've already talked about this and the stats speak for themselves. Data I never actually really thought about it as data itself, like data intelligence, data science. I never thought about it as a male-dominated industry actually, I guess software engineer is more male-dominated in my head but I've been to events of just women in data and huge. I'm talking 3,000, 5,000, 10,000 people all in the same venue, all talking about data, and they're all women of different backgrounds, different ages, and it's amazing. But at the end of the day, there's no in my opinion, and I might get cancelled for this. There's no, in my opinion, and I might get cancelled for this. There's. There's no extreme. That is good.

Darren Evans: 29:00

So male dominated is not good, but also female dominated would not be good. That I was wondering and the the reason that I was going to ask that question is just to try and get your view of advice you would give to your younger self around bullying, and advice that you would give to a young girl that is at school, irrespective of what country they're in, that's experiencing bullying.

Giulia Papi: 29:17

So I've got three daughters and all of my daughters have experienced bullying in a way that my son hasn't let yourself feel how shitty and how sucky and how bad these things are, but also, it's too easy to say, don't let, don't kick yourself down, because you're going to. Inevitably everyone else is doing it so like, why shouldn't you? But at the end of the day, if you let yourself know how shitty and how terrible that actually is, you'll not only develop things like empathy and resistance to abuse, which abuse is a very broad spectrum. It's not just the classic bullying in ways that we see it, but it also comes and manifests itself later on in life, in relationships, in jobs, toxic managers, toxic boyfriends, everything. But I think emotional intelligence is what is going to eventually save you. So, yeah, have a good support network. Don't be afraid of telling the people closest to you, don't be ashamed of what you're feeling and, yeah, just allow yourself to feel, really Cry however much you want. But yeah, support network is what is going to save you at the end of the day.

Darren Evans: 30:26

That's good. I like that support network. Many nations within Africa will say that it takes a village to raise a child, and so it's all about that support network that's around, and I think that we all felt that during the covid pandemic, where oh yeah felt as though everyone's network shrunk, or people's network shrunk maybe not everybody again, I had a very positive experience during COVID, so I am no one to speak as to how it might have felt for anyone else.

Giulia Papi: 30:58

I was in Tenerife. I had a massive terrace, I was working in the morning, tanning in the afternoon and working out, so I've had it pretty easy. But it's also the I think it's been like the season of divorces, because people were forced to be in their homes with, like, their toxic partners and having to to take in all of this abuse, that and they act, they physically had no way out and that's where your bubble could have saved you, even though it's easier said than done. Like I say, I'm no one to speak about any of these things like practically. But also, yeah, it was.

Giulia Papi: 31:35

For me it was a time of reflection because obviously I was with myself a lot and allowed myself to feel, I allowed myself to think, but I also cultivated hobbies that I didn't know I had.

Giulia Papi: 31:47

I started painting on shoes.

Giulia Papi: 31:49

Maybe I was bored, but I had fun and, yeah, I think the perception that I had of myself because I was spending so much time with myself and I had no way out so I couldn't distract myself by going out with friends or I could only distract myself to a certain extent during the day has changed massively and I think it strengthened the relationship that I have with myself and that also reflected in the relationship that I have with myself and that also reflected in the relationship that I had with my parents.

Giulia Papi: 32:13

So that's when I actually started becoming aware of the magnitude of my dad's career and the people that he had affected and quite involved along the way, because he we used to sit on the same terrace maybe one, two hours every day and he would tell me stories and sometimes they were funny, sometimes they weren't funny, and I think COVID season was also when I started my job at Index and from there everything just started going up very organically, like I've it never felt forced, and that is, yes, because of the experiences that I made it out to be. But again, the people that were on this journey with me George and Aaron to begin with, and then my parents and my friends, and, yeah, so I am consider myself to be a very blessed person and blessed in my support network.

Darren Evans: 33:05

I love that. I love that gratitude that you're showing there. I'm wondering if there's any other things that you feel grateful for even though I am your average capitalist.

Giulia Papi: 33:14

I love designer bags, I love nice shoes, I love holidays, I love everything shiny. I am also an extremely soft person, or like not soft in a bad way, because nowadays soft is bad or whatever, but I mean by soft that I allow myself to feel okay and, yeah, I think. I think the people in my life are really what I have to be grateful for.

Darren Evans: 33:36

Well, I think now we're in a position where we can go to the demolition zone. This bit here is where you build a physical representation of a myth that needs to be knocked down and busted you ready.

Giulia Papi: 33:48

Let's do it.

Darren Evans: 33:53

So we are now back in the demolition zone and you have created this wonderful, wonderful thing. We've got a line of five blue blocks, a line of five, three, four, five.

Giulia Papi: 34:04

Yeah, kind of lighter colored natural the purpose of this analogy. We'll call them white.

Darren Evans: 34:11

White. Ok, we'll call them white blocks, ok. And then you've got a couple of other. Well, you've got one other large block with a few blocks on top of another block, so they're in a line. I'm trying to describe it very, very badly for those people that are listening, but what does it represent?

Giulia Papi: 34:28

So the blue blocks represent the blue collar workforce, so all the people that every day they go on site and they actually do things on site that bring a project to completion.

Giulia Papi: 34:39

The white blocks are the white collar workforce, the ones that perhaps do more of the office work, they are the decision makers, they are the C-suite and your directors and your, let's say, figures of power.

Giulia Papi: 34:57

And then at the end is the myth that construction tech should or is generically built and designed with the C-suite and the white-collar workforce mostly in mind, and that is why the blue-collar workforce are generically resistant to the use of tech on-site.

Giulia Papi: 35:19

My idea for destroying this myth is that if we enable and we activate the blue-collar workforce with user-friendly software that they will want to use on-site on a daily basis because it allows them to get more things done in a day, get them done with better quality, and so less rework and more gratification, because gamification as well is a huge thing and a huge technique that we can adopt to empower people on site Then the C-suite will be able to leverage the tech to gather all the data that they need to continue to perform guided decision-making and that will allow them to progress as a business, win more jobs, get more contracts, make more money and, at the end, digitization in construction isn't as scary and as terrifying as it should be or as it appears to be today. So I hope this works and I'm going to destroy the myth.

Darren Evans: 36:15

Go and destroy the myth.

Giulia Papi: 36:19

Yes, Okay, I was nervous.

Darren Evans: 36:22

Straight down. There were three blue collar workers that are still standing, but the myth has been destroyed.

Giulia Papi: 36:28

Hopefully in real life as well. Can't wait to see it.

Darren Evans: 36:31

So where have you seen this show up, this problem in the past?

Giulia Papi: 36:35

It's not even the problem, because we haven't and this is probably me bragging a bit we haven't experienced as much resistance as the industry makes it out to be that bigger problem and I think the opposite we've experienced.

Giulia Papi: 36:50

Actually, in client feedback, we have people saying that the use of index, the use of tablets on site now is like second nature, the guys on the ground they actually enjoy like using index to perform their daily tasks.

Giulia Papi: 37:05

We do get sent from clients, sometimes like funny side, messages that they might have sent to each other or like some near misses or good practices to each other, or like some near misses or good practices, because, yes, it's important to monitor what's going wrong, but it's also important to recognize what's going right.

Giulia Papi: 37:23

So, conduct cards or anything, and, yeah, some people have gamified the use of index in their organization and I think it's really, really cool. So a lot of the feedback, like I said, that we get from users is actually how intuitive the app is and I think that is what has made the difference for those that actually use it. They recognize that they actually could have fun using it and, like I said for the c-suite, they also get to access all these dashboards which look as good as they do for them, because the people on the ground are collecting enough and the right type of data, and I think it's a whole ecosystem that then keeps like looping back and that begins with empowering people on site, and that is what index is all about, where do you think the future is with data and construction and site work?

Giulia Papi: 38:13

I think, also why I'm so against AI as a concept because it's being blown out of proportion and I think it's giving people the wrong idea that AI will take over their jobs, when that's not at all the intention of tech, the intention of data, the intention of digital, especially for construction. We couldn't go anywhere without the people, and I think what people need to understand is that ai data tech is not gonna replace or make them replaceable. It's gonna make them more powerful to get exactly where they need to be, to do what they need to do, but just do it better, wasting less time and making them less frustrated.

Darren Evans: 38:50

um, yeah, I think that, um you, the point you you brought up there is really good, and we can see through history that as technological advancements have happened, then people haven't been replaced, they've been empowered. The role has changed, but you can just be more effective.

Giulia Papi: 39:09

Exactly, and we are experiencing it now in construction as well, even though it's obviously at a lower pace as other industries, but we're getting there nonetheless. The creation of digital roles within contractor and subcontractor organizations that argue that their role is to scope out, not train, because maybe that is down to the software provider at least for us it is. We provide the training and we create the champions within contractors and subcontractors that use our products. But, yeah, the creation of digital-based roles. So you will have MMC, you will have digital construction, leads and sort of roles like that that you said they didn't exist before, but because there wasn't a need for them.

Darren Evans: 39:58

It's been great catching up with you today. I appreciate all of the wisdom that you have dropped and debunking that.

Giulia Papi: 40:04

And all the blocks that I've made drop Absolutely.

Darren Evans: 40:07

I think that the way that you are looking to influence and shape the industry is good and the calls that you are about and what you're trying to achieve is admirable, but for me, keep going. Keep doing that. I'm a great fan of what you're trying to do, but it's been a pleasure having you.

Giulia Papi: 40:24

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I've enjoyed it a lot.