Romain Richli: 0:00

I'm responsible for the climate and environment for WIG in the UK. Climate is one of the major and core strategies we implement for WIG within our business and operation and the whole kind of sustainability piece board level is fairly recent, isn't it?

Darren Evans: 0:13

in terms of the focus, yes, indeed, yes and no.

Romain Richli: 0:15

Actually, if you have the people without the purpose, you are going to lose track. You are going to be alone. If you have the vision, without people, you are nothing, did you?

Darren Evans: 0:22

start off in engineering. Was that the dream or was that the vision from when you were a young child? Not at all. How would you suggest someone starting on that path to alignment?

Romain Richli: 0:31

That's a good question.

Darren Evans: 0:33

Has there been any one conversation that really has had a fundamental influence on you?

Romain Richli: 0:38

I guess my main, my trigger or what turned me is what's your hope, then, for the future.

Romain Richli: 0:43

The industry and the world has been moving for the last three years. It's adding more and more and more and more, consuming more energy, year after year. We all need to progress and we all do a part. But we, in that competitive world, it's hard to say I do my part, but what if others don't play the same game? Changing the world? You think I'm going to change the world? I can't do that alone. I'd like to. I can't do that alone.

Darren Evans: 1:09

Hello and welcome to this episode of Thriving Construction with me, darren Evans. Today's guest. We have Romar Rishali from Boyi Romar, so great to have you here. Thanks for coming. Thank you very much for having me, darren. So very many people listening and watching this podcast will not really know who you are or what you do, but can you just give us a brief rundown of what it is that you do?

Romain Richli: 1:35

Yeah, indeed, I am Romar, I'm French, as you can hear, I work in a business whose name is Buig. Buig is a global company, in the building industry mainly, but we also do media and infrastructures. We operate throughout the world, from North America to Australia, through Middle East, singapore, some projects in Africa. So quite a big company. I'm responsible for the climate and environment for Buig in the UK. Okay, just the UK.

Darren Evans: 2:06

Yes, just the UK? Good, and what does that mean then? If you're responsible for that in the UK, what does that entail?

Romain Richli: 2:14

From start to finish. It's about starting to define what it is we want to do as a business. So putting together strategies, bringing all skills from the business to contribute to these strategies, setting up targets, setting up monitoring of these targets, reporting processes, to start with, going on our sites to actually ensure things are happening, this kind of daily from, yeah, from setting strategies towards delivering what it is we believe is good to do.

Darren Evans: 2:44

So it sounds like from what you're saying that you work in an arraigned board level or that level within the UK.

Romain Richli: 2:50

Yeah, I am at the XCOM of Buig, uk, reporting to our CEO, because climate is one of the major and core strategies we implement for Buig within our business and operations, so report to our CEO. I represent Buig at the XCOM. I share best practices with my, let's say, collaterals or counterparts throughout the world in other parts of the business as well.

Darren Evans: 3:20

Good and the whole kind of sustainability piece at board level is fairly recent, isn't it? In terms of the focus, I'm thinking of business generally in the construction industry, I'd say it's definitely within the last 10 years.

Romain Richli: 3:35

Yes, indeed. Well, yes and no. Actually, the fact that it's gone up to the board level yes, it is fairly recent, because the realization of the emergency, of the climate emergency, can't say that it is recent. But the awareness of the businesses to take action is, say it's been multiplied, from COP26 mainly, where we all realized what was happening. Nevertheless, 10 years ago we were doing things at Buig about carbon and climate. It's just that it was one of the sub streams of our action, through technicalities or development or preconstruction. There was sustainability and there was social value at that time, 10 years ago already. It's been escalated in the past two, three years at a different level.

Darren Evans: 4:28

So I know that there's going to be lots of people listening and watching this, thinking do you know? Romain has got the job that I really want, not necessarily in Buig, but in terms of that level, having that level of experience or maybe influence what advice would you give for someone that's just coming out of university that looks at the type of experience that you've got and the type of influence that you have and says I want to get there?

Romain Richli: 4:58

What advice would you give them? That's interesting In regards to my specific position and my specific profile. I am not from a climate or environmental background. I am an engineer. Initially. I've been doing a lot on preconstruction, so developing design with architects and engineers, understanding how we manage a project. So I'm project lead and I need to make sure that project goes beyond the line and it's delivered.

Romain Richli: 5:27

I have that kind of visibility or understanding of how a project works, how a business works. I've been in the business for 18 or 19 years, for weeks, so I know the business, I know what a project is. I need to have actually all these project management skills to make something happen. It's just that my project now is about climate and environment. It's not a physical project. It's a different project. So even for someone who comes out of school, it's not really about the technicalities behind climate. It's not really about these specificities. It's about managing people, managing processes, managing projects and the ability to have people gather around you, understand your vision and where you want to go, implement steps. That's really about it, and I think when I was out of school I was much more into the techniques and my skills and expertise and now I've moved to managing these skills wherever they are in the business. Put them together.

Darren Evans: 6:39

I found it quite interesting actually that you put people first, that you said first of all, it's people.

Romain Richli: 6:45

Yes, it is.

Darren Evans: 6:46

But you say that's the order. Consciously or subconsciously, have you put that first because it's the most important.

Romain Richli: 6:54

Actually, if I think about it now, I wouldn't put well enough people first. I would put vision first, if there's no vision.

Darren Evans: 7:03

So that's that picture in your mind that says this is what good looks like.

Romain Richli: 7:07

This is where we're going and, most of all, this is why we're doing what we want to. Vision and purpose First. Once you have that strong, you need to have people around you to buy into it. You need to convince people that's the right thing to do. And then you've got the two main elements a vision, a purpose and the people with the right skills. If you have the people without the purpose, you are going to lose track very you are going to be alone. If you have the vision without people, you are nothing.

Darren Evans: 7:37

So some might call that a dreamer.

Romain Richli: 7:40

Just the vision, that's all Just a dream.

Darren Evans: 7:44

That's fantastic. So how did you get into this specific line of work? Did you start off in engineering? Was that the dream, or was that the vision from when you were a young child?

Romain Richli: 7:56

Not at all. I've been doing pre-construction and development for most of my career and there's always been sustainability and environment within the project I have developed. Then I got more mature, I'd say, and then I started to think where can I find more purpose? Where can I play a part in this world? Exactly that. Where can I play a part in the world not only in my business, not only in the industry in the world? Why am I here?

Romain Richli: 8:31

How can I contribute? And then I just raised my hands internally to the business and say I'd like to work for the planet and for the people rather than for a project. How can I do that? And how can I do that in our business, which I love, and they say, well, let's discuss that.

Darren Evans: 8:49

So who was that then that you put your hand up to, to say this is how I feel inside, this is what my desire is, going back to that vision and that purpose, and about how old were you, how long were you out of university or how long were you in Boyk for when that moment happened. For you.

Romain Richli: 9:10

I spent 15 years of my life at Boyk doing projects.

Darren Evans: 9:15

So you were in there for a significant period of time then at Boyk, 15 years.

Romain Richli: 9:18

Well, we've been 18 or 19 years at Boyk. Now 15 of them are about projects from out of school studies throughout, managing small teams and bigger teams and managing bigger projects. So after 15 years I said to my boss when talking about the future and career and what I like to do and like less. I said this is why I see myself in the future. It happened that there was an opportunity in the business, at the same time Relaying back to my CEOs and directors at ball level reiterating my this message about what I'd like to do, and it went on and I had a few chat with these board members saying I think you are the right guy for us One. You are in the business. You know it well. After 15, 16 years, you have the ability to manage projects, major projects, and that's just. That's a major project. We're not talking about 500 units on the land somewhere in London, which is a major project. That's a different project and climate and environment for our business.

Darren Evans: 10:28

What do you think they saw in you that gave them that confidence? It's probably a tricky question.

Romain Richli: 10:36

Well, one of the things I believe I've been good at and I would recommend anyone to try that is just to say how you feel, what you want, and raise your hand without fear to say that's what I like to do, because some would I think would mute it, saying, oh, maybe that's just part of the job or maybe they don't expect me to be going there. They know for me what I have to do and I guess some of them know, and sometimes they just don't know and they are happy to see someone standing up and say I'd like to do that.

Darren Evans: 11:10

I say that to my son, and actually my daughter is all the time is that one of the things that will help you not just go in a direction that you want to go in, but help other people? To help you is just be really, really clear with who you are, what you like, what you don't like, not in an arrogant way, but just in an open and a transparent way. Look, I really love this and people will see the passion and I think people will just help you, and it sounds like that's what's happened to you. Indeed.

Romain Richli: 11:39

And what you qualify as, know what you like and know who you are. Most of the time, name it as alignment. You do what you are, you are what you do and you say what you do and you are what you say.

Romain Richli: 11:54

All this alignment is the strongest thing you can have in life, because if you start to digress from it or move away from it, you lose yourself and you soon be lost without fully realizing. And that's a strong, that must be a strong feeling to feel lost because you've never really tried to get that alignment. That's the strongest thing you can build.

Darren Evans: 12:19

So it's interesting, then maybe if someone is feeling lost. Maybe the thing that they need to focus on is that alignment. It's a good question to ask.

Romain Richli: 12:29

It is a good exercise and I think it is hard and painful because you get to go into your guts, say some truth. You might not be willing to hear and decide and admit the failures and admit the way forward and maybe be helped by family members, husband, wife, friends and that's about being open, being vulnerable, very, very important thing maybe to be able to be vulnerable at some point and accept that.

Darren Evans: 13:01

Where would you say someone could start? If this is what they're feeling at the moment that they're maybe lost, feeling like they're not making an impact or having the joy or there's no alignment in what they're doing, how would you suggest someone starting on that path to alignment?

Romain Richli: 13:23

That's a good question. What I like to do when I'm faced with a question as this one, and as a few others because I'm a bit rainy also is to go back to definitions when you say what brings you joy?

Romain Richli: 13:38

wait a minute, what is joy? Try to find what's joy for you and start to investigate that. Then you say what brings you joy? What do you mean by bringing something? What does bringing mean to you? And you start to realize that just by asking the questions or looking into dictionary sometimes, what this means makes you think a lot and makes you define your own understanding, your own story, and you'll be surprised that what you had in mind initially has been joy. Actually, when you think about it, it's quite different from what you had in mind initially.

Darren Evans: 14:10

I love that. The thing I like about that the most is that when we speak, what we do is effectively conveying images from our mind into someone else's mind, and I think it's really, really easy for me to use one word to try and convey an image into your mind, but actually the way that you interpret that word is something completely different from the way that I interpret it, and just the way that you've said there that you know this concept of bringing you joy, that for lots of people will mean different things. Someone asking themselves that question what does it actually mean? What does joy even mean for me? I think that's a great place to start.

Romain Richli: 14:47

Yes, there's another one. Interesting is trying to project yourself in moments in your life where you felt balanced, felt yourself and others, where you felt out of place, and try to list and again define what was so strong at that time, which made me feel so good, and then you start to really to build that puzzle, which you have never tried to build because that's how it works. But if you make the effort to build that puzzle again and you picture what the good looks like, what it is actually you want to do, so, going back, what's your earliest memory of having alignment in your life, the time where you felt everything is just where it needs to be?

Romain Richli: 15:33

and should be. Alignment is a big word and I'm not sure we all ever 100% align right. So you can get close to that, sometimes a bit further, sometimes get influenced by some external elements and it's hard, and the society around you, and so it's hard to get fully aligned and I can't say I'm fully aligned right. But my first real thinking about this alignment is having some trainings about public speaking, for example, where the words you say need to be mirrored by your gestures, the tone with the voice, the voice with the eyes, the eyes with the. So all of that together, which is a skill for public speakers to have all of that aligned so that we can believe that what is said is actually believed. Deep inside of that.

Romain Richli: 16:25

Starting to think of all of these little elements contributing towards this alignment and this actually is applicable for public speaking, it's also applicable on a daily life, for life and even at home. I mean it's all together, even with kids. Now, the way you speak to them, what it is, what's the message you want to convey, and all of the body and all the voice and all the brain and all the heart comes together in a single simple message. And the kids on this one. The kids can feel very easily when there's a misalignment. You can fool a few adults. You won't fool the kids because they read you.

Darren Evans: 17:06

And you can see that right when. And you have one child, right? Yes, so I've got four children with. The thing that I noticed with my children is that they know when I'm lying to them.

Darren Evans: 17:20

I don't mean like a flat out lie, as in like this is it. But they know that what's coming out of my mouth isn't conducive with what's in my heart. And when they call me out on it, it takes conscious effort not as much, nowhere near as much now as what it did when I was a newer dad, shall we say, but it takes conscious effort to recognize the truth that they are speaking from, what they're seeing and the false that's coming out of me with what I'm saying.

Darren Evans: 17:50

So I've definitely experienced that many times. So, going back to yourself when you're a child, is there a time that you think actually this was quite an influential moment in my life? That's helped me with this sense of meaning, helped me with the sense of responsibility or doing something for a greater purpose than just myself.

Romain Richli: 18:15

One thing I can remember and this is what comes to my mind in regards to that kind of awareness of a bigger picture is that I remember me and my mother saying you are annoyed by injustice. I'm very annoyed by people suffering for no reason, indeed, but from discrepancies which are not backed up or supported in any way. And I feel, when I was young, I was upset by some things happening in the world and around me that this is not fair and there's nothing I can do about it. This is the world and this is the system. And I was young and I think this brought me to unfairness or injustice in the world, and it was your mom that identified that on you yeah, okay, yeah, and I think she would still say the same. You, I mean, I guess all parents say that you have a big heart, but what's particular or specific to me is that I can't bear unfairness.

Darren Evans: 19:27

Do you remember what was going on when she said that? Was there something on TV or something that happened at school? Do you remember what it was?

Romain Richli: 19:34

I can't remember, but it might well be people suffering from hunger, where you see these images of villages and young children and families starving in their countries and you wonder why you've done on earth to be lucky enough to be where you are, where others are suffering not too far from where you are.

Darren Evans: 19:54

And so your desire, then, was to help those people directly, as in one on one, or to help them via a system or an organization that was causing their suffering or could alleviate their suffering.

Romain Richli: 20:11

I'll be honest and blunt. At that time, when I was young, I didn't get the idea to help well enough, so it was just the noise that you were making.

Romain Richli: 20:20

Yes, and it was just. This is not normal and I guess this Not normal or not right, this is not normal. This is not normal, this is certainly not right, but it's not normal, it shouldn't be the norm. And this, I guess, brought me, or built in me, into me in this case and many others, a willingness at some point to be an actor, to be active against unfairness or injustice and to play a part, as I was saying before, to play a part in that in a way, and if it's not about hunger, it may be about health, it may be about plenty of other injustice and unfairness we can see in the world. It happens that it is about climate in my professional role and environment. So I think it kind of planted a seed in my brain that says there are plenty of things and at some point in your life you will be active and you will be leading people against this unfairness.

Darren Evans: 21:25

And so that shows up for you in your job now.

Romain Richli: 21:28

Yes.

Darren Evans: 21:28

The ability to do that.

Romain Richli: 21:31

Yes, I am. I am very much, and not only because my business is supporting me and willing to do the right thing, but because I am personally willing to change the way we operate, and not only myself and my colleagues and my friends and my family.

Darren Evans: 21:49

I love that. I am interested in hearing from you the thing that has impacted you the most that you have worked on. Has there been any one project, has there been any one conversation that really has had a fundamental influence on you? It could be related to that. It could be related to something completely different.

Romain Richli: 22:09

I guess my main, my trigger or what turned me, is becoming a dad a few years ago, seeing these small things happening and being on earth with us, and us looking forward to the future and say what it is in which world are you going to live? In which world I am living now. What I want to prepare for you, what message I want you to convey in the future, when you be asked oh, what is your dad doing? And and even even, oh, there's one thought I've had. That is when that little one, my daughter, is going in a few years to say to me what have you been doing, daddy, about the climate? You knew that, right, I couldn't bear myself thinking that I could only say nothing, darling, I'm sorry, I know, I knew, I just did nothing. So I decided to say I want to be able to tell her I did something. I knew and I did, and I've not changed the world, but I brought my stone to that, I brought my energy to that, and you are going to be the next one.

Darren Evans: 23:21

So you've done everything within your power, everything you can think of. You've spoken about people already and about the importance of working with other people. Yeah, Develop that skill as well.

Romain Richli: 23:31

Everything in my power yes, with all the constraints around it, with every. Every lock we find in our industries, every lock we find in the system and in our viability models. Hard work.

Darren Evans: 23:47

How have you seen the industry, and also buoy, change over the last few years For the better?

Romain Richli: 23:57

For the better, For the better I don't know whether I can comment for the better. I can see the industry moving. I can see the industry communicating much more. I can see some transparency, Reporting figures communicating more, a lot of PR, because there's always this competition things winning work. So it's not free communication. There is a purpose behind it, right, and why not? Actually, if competition brings us closer to a better planet, then I'm happy with that.

Darren Evans: 24:36

Let's go.

Romain Richli: 24:38

So I've seen a much better awareness a couple of years ago and last year. This year fading a bit. I can see that fading a bit. And one example I went to London Build last week, the week before. There is a lot about.

Romain Richli: 24:57

Two years ago, london Build was full of sustainability, full of green, innovative products, new ways, digital. This year was fire. Half of the event is fire. And why not? Because that's a big big thing in our industry, right, and I can see how these events are following the concerns of the clients and the money actually also, and it's fine and I understand. But I'm thinking we lost the battle. Is it finished? Is it was a trend a couple of years ago? And then it's just not working anymore. So there is a need to. And we could not sustain anyway the way climate was put at the front of the stage two years ago Because it was too strong, too hard for that climate wobbly thing to stay at the top of the edge and that threw out for the next 30 years. So we need to be humble enough to say, fine, it's got to be a constant effort towards better, not a push a year. So I'm finding if it's not the top of the London built event. It's got to be here. It's got to progress still for the next decades.

Darren Evans: 26:08

I definitely saw within my organization a significant shift in conversations that we were having with our clients over the COVID period and towards the back end of that, compared to when I first sat the company back in 2007,. Those conversations would really, really, really happen they were looking at it as what we do as a tick box exercise.

Darren Evans: 26:32

Let's just do that. Just sprinkle a bit of fairy dust on it and it will go away. We didn't really care or were interested in this, just overcoming the hurdle so we can get the money from the building.

Romain Richli: 26:44

I agree there's been a lot. I mean, I'm just looking at the past six months, or one year, from 2021, cop26, which was huge, but before that it was not in the conversations, it was not on the table, it was not on the agenda of any meeting. So I agree that the conversations we have with our clients are engaging with climates and a lot the questions we receive in our tenders.

Darren Evans: 27:11

There are many questions with the weight of it that is much more than, and those deeper questions as well, wouldn't they?

Romain Richli: 27:16

Yeah, yeah, and the clients understand much more than what they did two, three, four years ago. So you can feel the industry moving and becoming more aware.

Darren Evans: 27:25

So I would class that as a positive. Yes, we're not at the point where we're at perfection, but I think that that has been or at least I felt anyway a seismic shift in that area, around that conversation and maybe that awareness.

Romain Richli: 27:41

At the ex-com or board level who knew a bit about climate. Now they are trained, they know the science behind it. They bring people like me and my team around the table more than three, four, five years ago and I guess all board members and all board organizations start clearly to be aware of what's behind that, and how much influence or how much visibility do you have at Boig on a global level, not just within the UK?

Romain Richli: 28:12

Yes, I think that's. The strength in our group is that I have my counterparts throughout the world. I spend quite some time speaking with guys in Switzerland because they are what advanced in that country, too in this regard. I spend time with the guys in Australia, so we have forums where we can share best practices, hurdles and how to take the best of Australia bringing in the UK and take the best of the UK and bringing in France so that we all collaborate at a global level. I see them a lot and I'll be in Paris next year to have a session with these guys and share for a full week best practices throughout the world in the group and does the same exist with members of your team?

Darren Evans: 28:57

How many have you got on your team actually?

Romain Richli: 28:58

We are five in that team. We have a site that is environment, purely on what we do on our sites, one site which is more climate, which is design of our buildings, materials we use and best practices about sustainability, and all of them are working together and most of it is actually overlapping quite a lot Within my teams. There are a few other forums and working groups organized within our business at global level. So, again at their level, they will also share best practices with their counterparts throughout the globe.

Darren Evans: 29:37

What's your hope, then, for the future first week, and then for the construction industry as a whole? What's your hope?

Romain Richli: 29:44

My hope for week is to be able to set more ambitious targets, leading targets beyond the norm, and stick to it. And there are so many constraints to do that because actually it's still quite niche. There's not that many builders that would say I'm only going to do net zero, low and budget whatever team they're, Because this is a business and the industry and the business makes that. You need to have a portfolio of diverse projects and I'd like us to try to move further and higher in that ambition and I'm supported by the board and the ex-com and I'd like to make sure we select projects with good environmental credentials and we have the ability very early on to have a selection process that enables us to make the right decisions from now on and we are on track and we are supported. It takes time to turn.

Darren Evans: 30:50

Absolutely. Yeah, it does take time.

Romain Richli: 30:51

And I was saying to one of my previous bosses, saying you know, we are going to take a steep turn, a steep turn, and one of the main advice someone would give in a Formula One is when you take a steep turn, first you brake, then you turn. If you don't brake, you hit the wall.

Darren Evans: 31:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah it's too much momentum, yeah, taking you forward, isn't it?

Romain Richli: 31:14

We are turning very steep and the business needs to continue moving forward at a defined speed. So it's hard to amend the trajectory within the speed, but we're getting there.

Darren Evans: 31:28

What's your hope for the industry?

Romain Richli: 31:29

The industry it's. I think I mentioned it recently in a piece we wrote the industry tries to deliver projects on time, with the quality, with the right price, with the fire regulations that are safe for people, that are beautiful aesthetically. I mean. There are a lot of constraints on these, on our industry and our businesses and on our guys on site, and climate is one of them. And, out of these 10 constraints and elements and opportunities, make sure this climate thing is not relayed far down the line because we have other immediate concerns and, again, I can't expect the industry to put climate at the forefront.

Romain Richli: 32:20

And we have a We've had yesterday a health and safety standard on our sites to stop half a day and think health and safety. And I'm still saying to the guys on site I work in the climate because I think the work we do now on climate is going to save lives in the future. Remember, health and safety is about acting now to save lives now. This is number one. This is number one. Nevertheless, I would like that climate to remain high on the agenda and not to be too high on the agenda and not to be forgotten a bit further on the list, because there's a lot happening when I talk to our guys on site, coming with my climate, environment, all requirements and ambitions, I know how hard it is for them to Not to buy into it, because they genuinely believe it's the right thing to do and they have so much on their plate, so much on their plate.

Darren Evans: 33:22

We hear that time after time from our clients to say, look, we'd love to do this, but I just don't know how I can fit it in or where it fits in. And I think the point that you've made there is a really valid one is with all of the different areas of focus. The truth is you can't focus on all things at the same time. You have to prioritize. Yeah.

Romain Richli: 33:44

Or I'm not asking you to do everything. I'm saying, if you do two of them today, you've done your job and that's enough. We'll do two other tomorrow. So also having this, not humility, but that balance, that say, indeed, if I ask you the whole, the full monty, you're going to explode, right. So do one today and I'll come back tomorrow, and it's fine and it's progressive, because if we push too hard, we're going to break the machine and that's what we don't want.

Romain Richli: 34:12

Yeah, we don't want to we are here for the long run, I can tell you.

Darren Evans: 34:18

So what is it now that you would say, that you focus on? What's your area of expertise, if your daughter is going to say, what is it that you did?

Romain Richli: 34:32

Well, my daughter would say you know that poison that goes in the air because this is how I explain to her coward emissions, or greenhouse gas emissions. Actually, this is a kind of poison. You see, when you breathe it it can make you die. You're having issues with your body and at the same time it's getting hotter, and hotter on earth and warmer, and at some point we're going to destroy where we live. So the focus of the last years has been carbon, carbon energy and carbon consume less energy and emit less carbon. To start with, this has been for the last two years. We've been having a huge involvement and action on carbon and we are now having the same approach to develop the other elements of our strategy, which are biodiversity and ecosystems, materials and waste, energy and water in addition to carbon, and upskilling our teams and collaborating with third parties and other businesses.

Darren Evans: 35:32

Is there anything on your mind with reference to embodied carbon, how that's assessed and how that moves forward, because it feels like a bit of a wild west at the moment out there, when it comes to embodied carbon.

Romain Richli: 35:48

Yeah, that's interesting and I don't blame the regulation or the system. It's quite new and I know in many other fields this has taken 10 or 20 years to actually be standardized and agreed by all as best practice. And now we can in many fields, for example accounting, we can compare things together and say what's best, what's worse, In whole life carbon assessment is yet not the case, Although we have very good RICS guidance and other standards. It's a bit harder to find your way through that and we've been collaborating with a few businesses, four or five different organizations doing the kind of same assessments, and we always find slightly different ways to approach it, or some of them underreporting, some of those overreporting. We don't know really where we stand and you'll see the latest call for evidence from UK NADIR building startups. They are reaching figures which are surprising sometimes, as what's the average or median value for residential, for example?

Romain Richli: 37:02

And I'm glad these guys came back to the industry to say these are the results communicated. What do you think? Are they underestimated, Overestimated? So there is another loop they've actually put in place, realizing this is what the industry says. Do you believe it? Because we need to ask these questions.

Darren Evans: 37:23

Do you think that anything else could be done to try and help that clarity be there and it feel less ambiguous? Again, going back to what we were talking about before with language and how language is really important, at least the definition of what you mean by the thing that you're saying. So when someone says I have a embodied carbon report or whole life cycle and it is this, that it means the same to you as it does to me, as it means to someone else.

Romain Richli: 37:59

I don't think the bottom line figure is the purpose right now.

Darren Evans: 38:05

So we should just ignore that bottom line. No, don't worry about that bit.

Romain Richli: 38:09

No, the question could be rather okay what have you done? Actually, you reach 400 or 600 or 900. What's your methodology? What have you done? What have you done to reduce? If you think you've reduced, what have you done? How many times?

Romain Richli: 38:26

From our IBS stage two to three to four, you've got three different things that are saying it's going down. But these are just figures. The question is what have you implemented in these models to make a change and how can these be shared with others if they are genuine to help others? Now, whether the bottom line of this whole life carbon assessment is 500 or 600 or 650, sometimes maybe two different consultants would give two different figures for the same scheme. So maybe the 500 and 600 actually is the same scheme, it's just assessed slightly differently. So the question is what have you done and what have you done with it? How have you collaborated with the design team to change the way things were done, to improve? Because else is just a reporting process and reporting doesn't bring a lot. What brings is, once you have reported, what do you do with these?

Darren Evans: 39:18

results. So that sounds like from that approach you're looking at it more from an internal point of view as opposed to an industry point of view. Because if someone is to report, I'm just wondering now how can someone report on what they've done and that be an industry standard or industry requirement? I can see how that could happen in an organization. You ask yourself that question and improve, but I'm wondering if you think that that could stretch across the industry. That approach, yes.

Romain Richli: 39:48

Two things on that. The first one is when I say the bottom line doesn't really matter, what I'm thinking is if we were to improve altogether in the industry. It's not about the figure, it's about the process. What do we do to reduce our emissions? Because the question asked by the world and by the IPCC reports are reduced. So what do we do to reduce Now?

Romain Richli: 40:17

Indeed, it's good and it'd be good to standardize, and I said before, accounting has taken 20 years to streamline a way of financial reporting. We need to move there and I'm not too annoyed by this not being yet ready. If it's not next year, it's not next year, because what we want to do now is to report. But we still need to push these RICA guys and GLA guidance and all others to converge together, clarify and this is happening already but get people from the industry to input into that. There's a lot of knowledge in the industry. I can see sometimes some forums organized with third party organizations. No one is representing the industry. There are people thinking together without taking into account what people like my business or others or yours would have to say on that. But I can see a lot of other forums where actually the industry is contributing, and I see the UKGBCs or Letty having people around them and within them that are from the industry, so building these standards together is probably certainly the way forward.

Darren Evans: 41:27

What do you think an architect can do to contribute positively in this area?

Romain Richli: 41:32

What we try to do with our own developments is to engage very early on with strategies, ambitions, targets, what it is we want to reach, what do we ambition to do, and then each RAB stage to subset these targets and ambitions into actual actions. At RAB, stage two, what it is that we can do, or even before that stage one, but at stage two, what it is that we can do as an architect, to progress into that direction of ours, which is the ambition we started initially, because sometimes we realize that we have an ambition early on and then we meet again at the end of the job to measure well, wait a minute, an ambition is something. That's the vision. Then we need intermediate steps at each stage. First stage is zero, one, then it's two and at the start and end of stage two we need to sit down and write what it is we are going to do. Then do it.

Darren Evans: 42:29

I like that. So constantly checking at each stage where you are against the overall objective and where you want to go instead of just waiting till you get to the end and say oh yeah, we got it, or I know we didn't get there.

Romain Richli: 42:43

Even checking against the objective itself might be a hard ask, at least checking about the actions we said would contribute to our carbon addictions, whether they materialize into the figure we initially thought might be still inaccurate, because that science is still a bit inaccurate. But at least the actions we say we would do, we did them.

Darren Evans: 43:07

What about for someone that's a design manager, someone on the design side? What advice or pointers would you give them?

Romain Richli: 43:17

On the design management side, the skill really is in the coordination, collaboration and team spirit and, I guess, wrongly received or not welcomed by design managers. But their role is not to design nothing, they are here to design, they are here to manage the design. Designers are designers, we have architects, just say that one more time.

Darren Evans: 43:41

So design managers are not there to design, they're there to manage the design process. They're there to manage the design process. So it's all about people, all about coordination, organization and collaboration between these people.

Romain Richli: 43:56

We have an architect, we have a structural engineer, we have a flood engineer, we have a fire engineer, we have 20 guys in the room and the design manager is now here to explain the architects how to do his job or the structural engineers and sometimes they don't have the skills to do that and they are specific skills. They are here to make sure that collaboration happens and comments from one side are understood by the other and we're all on the same page. So, in regards to carbon, in regards to this is really about pulling these strings and making links between people, because everything the architect is saying is going to impact another designer. Another thing another designer is going to say is going to have an impact on third elements. So it's about having this holistic view and making sure people see it around that same table to talk about the same topic, which is carbon in this specific case.

Darren Evans: 44:50

What would you say to the end client? Not necessarily your customers, but maybe your customers. If someone's listening to this or watching this, you think, ah, they just understood or appreciated this one thing. It could make a huge difference.

Romain Richli: 45:06

On the embodied carbon side, it is a hard one. On the operational carbon, and let's start with this one, it's about energy reduction. So there is indeed an OPEX slash, capex, operational cost and capital cost balance to be found, and the better the building is going to be in regards to carbon emissions, the less energy is going to consume. And given what we know about the cost of energy in the past years and our ability to be autonomous or not autonomous in regards to energy supply, it is indeed a plus and a paramount parameter for our clients to make sure the deliver buildings that are efficient, consume less energy and even financially speaking, this is very well explained by return on investment and carbon payback period. Embodied is a harder one, because we need to find where the value actually is, where there is value for someone for a residential scheme, value for someone to live in a low carbon, low embodied carbon building.

Darren Evans: 46:16

So when you talk about value here, are you saying money, where the financial? Because value can be attributed to lots of different things. But often in the industry the word value is interchanged with the word money. Is that what you're saying? Yes, it is when the financial value is.

Romain Richli: 46:36

Yes, I know, the first value is how do I value in regards to values, my efforts.

Darren Evans: 46:43

Where is my value? Yeah?

Romain Richli: 46:46

Where do I value this kind of better building? That's the first question, and if I value that, then there is also a financial value that comes with it, because when I decide to live in a building and when it's closer to my values, I guess I'm able to put more money on that one. So there is a financial incentive there. I don't know how much the public right now is making conscious decisions on where they are going to live. In regards to embodied carbon.

Darren Evans: 47:18

My thought is that most people that are outside of the industry don't really understand the concept of embodied carbon. But I'm wondering, just as I'm speaking here, is there a way that, similarly to how you were explaining to your six-year-old little girl about carbon, if there's a way to kind of simplify that message so that people that are outside of the industry get it and they're like okay, I see the value. Now I'm going to value this. I understand it.

Romain Richli: 47:51

Again, it is a hard ask because the way that the industry and the world has been moving for the last 50 years is adding more and more and more and more, consuming more energy year after year for the past 60 years, even in the home, right Even in the home.

Darren Evans: 48:11

So you know multiple TVs. Then you've got the iPads and the phones and Wi-Fi and the ring doorbells and all of these other things that are just it's more, more intensity, even more quantity.

Romain Richli: 48:25

I have two homes, I have two cars, I have two TVs. I mean, who had two TVs 50 years ago? Who had one? I didn't even have a TV girl. We don't have one at home for other reasons though. So we multiply quantities and we are also more energy-intense. There's more.

Romain Richli: 48:45

So explaining now to these people, because actually, embodied carbon is about how much carbon has been invented to build that thing, but even before carbon, because actually carbon is just the result of combustion of fossil fuels. So it's go back to energy. How much energy have we had to spend to build that house? And this energy has been translated into carbon for greenhouse gases reasons, but actually that's energy to start with. So, starting to go back to the people and say, oh, we need to consume less energy, that's counter trends, that's against the trend of the past 60 years. Why would I go in a house that has required less energy? Why would I even do that?

Romain Richli: 49:32

So again, thinking about these ethos and what good looks like, and where we are going to try to convince people that actually we don't need all that we have. We can live in a kind of simpler way. We can have exposed ceilings. It's fine we don't have to have all these fancy stuff, although now we are used to that. It's hard to go back and I think it's an issue with this kind of having more and more. When you start to have it, you don't need it. When you have it, you can't live without, and we are in this world. You won't live with an exposed ceiling. You need to have these systems hidden from your eyes because you don't want to see them, although there is a price to pay and it is carbon and it happens to many, many items around us.

Darren Evans: 50:23

That's interesting. It goes back, I think, again in my mind to a meaning. At least, if I'm seeing a ceiling which is unconventional and I've got the exposed wiring and so on and so on in a non-domestic building, is my meaning to that? Do I attach the meaning of this isn't finished, this is not safe, this is not right, or do I attach the meaning of this is really good because this has saved a huge amount of carbon?

Romain Richli: 50:55

It goes back to the chat with values. Some would find valuable and exposed ceiling because they find that's the right message to send to anyone coming in this room. Some others would say, well, that's not a value, that's cheap.

Darren Evans: 51:08

I just forgot to put it as you speak in there, I'm remembering how smoking was represented in film and on TV when I was growing up. So growing up in the late 70s, early 80s I'm showing my age now, right People would smoke on TV, and it was a status symbol. It was I'm cool, I'm attractive, I'm desirable. It doesn't happen there. Indeed, I can't remember the last film that I saw where somebody was smoking on the screen.

Romain Richli: 51:48

And you were when you see kind of old movies. Now, when you see someone smoking, you find it odd, and so I think you know, bringing it back.

Darren Evans: 51:56

I wonder if we can get to that stage. I don't think it's out of the realms of possibility and the meaning can be as big or as small as you want in your mind. I agree, but we'll see. Who would have thought that before COVID happened it would be acceptable for us to have a conversation on teams with six, seven, eight other people and call that a design team meeting?

Romain Richli: 52:21

Yeah, from home and that'd be called in acceptable.

Darren Evans: 52:23

you know, the meaning is changed because we all decided that it's okay. We can get the job done that way.

Romain Richli: 52:30

Yeah, that's interesting because the COVID is explained by an emerging and urgent situation from one day to another. It's such a big constraint that we had to adapt to that right Climate. Rarely enough and that's something I say sometimes actually. And I think these kind of duality between that long term 2050 or 2100 dates, which for some seems like, oh, it's not my life, it's others far away and the emergency of the situation today and as some feel that the emergency is not here and now today because it's 2015 to 2100, then there's no direct action On COVID. There was no choice, it was from one day to another.

Darren Evans: 53:19

Yeah, you lived it straight away, so interesting. On that point, then, I wonder do you think that this needs to be a government led or an industry led shift and change? Who should be leading out, or would be the most effective to be leading out on this?

Romain Richli: 53:36

I think that indeed, as you mentioned, everyone's got a part and it's going to contribute to that.

Romain Richli: 53:46

The governments or global organizations need to step in and define better rules, because the systems and the industries are still systems built around money and this becomes a break. This becomes a constraint for many to move beyond what they do now. So it's creating friction. Yes, because in order to go beyond the norm, you need to be ready to take risks and maybe lose money or maybe invest more. You don't know where you're going to recover your money and if you are even going to recover it, although you are convinced that's the right thing to do. So that's a we all need to progress and we all do a part, but in that competitive world it's hard to say I do my part, but what if others don't play the same game? How can I? Are we all playing the same game and the game is dictated by governments and laws, so that's the level playing field kind of. We all at least have to do that and at the moment it's not yet clear on that.

Darren Evans: 55:10

So the government are there to grease the wheel, so to speak. So there's less friction, so things can move.

Romain Richli: 55:16

Yeah, what were you saying? Yeah, or things can move with less fear, less risks, less, less, less. I'm playing the game, but I'm the only one, so how can I win? I mean, that's, that's hard.

Darren Evans: 55:32

Well, I think that that kind of segues quite nicely really into the next segment, which is the demolition zone. Oh, are you ready? Yeah, let's do it. Hi.

Darren Evans: 55:42

Thank you very much for watching this podcast. I'd like you to do me a favor, and I don't mean here just to ask you to subscribe and to follow, but what I'd really like you to do is to share this podcast with as many people as you think would benefit from it. I would love to maintain the quality of people that are joining me on this podcast, and so, in order for me to do that, I really need your help, and the way that you can help is by sharing the podcast with the people that you know that you think may have a slight interest in, or maybe a deep interest in, the guests and topics that are covered on this podcast. It is all about construction, so that may lead your thinking towards people that are already in the construction industry, but I don't think we necessarily need to be that narrow with the people that we can reach out to. Maybe it's somebody that's looking to get into an industry, but they're not quite sure what industry they want to get into. Maybe it's a teenager that is just finishing their GCSEs or starting A-levels, maybe it's somebody that's doing an English degree at university, but it's not quite sure what they want to do with that degree. So I invite you just to share this podcast with as many people that you know so that we can grow this community, so that we can maintain the quality, engaging conversations that we're having together.

Darren Evans: 57:01

Thank you for your help. So, romar, this is a fantastic creation. I love this. I would describe this as a thing of beauty. It's quite difficult to put into words, but the structure isn't particularly high. It's fairly flat, but it has various ledges coming out of it, and it's one of those things that you would get a different perspective of depending on the side of the construction that you stand on. It's great. What does it represent?

Romain Richli: 57:33

Well, that's my myth. Although I've tried to represent something which you describe as a fantastic piece of architecture or structure Actually I voluntarily put it a bit wobbly, with kind of weird foundations and spikes out at different levels there's not much of an understanding of what this actually is, what it's made in, what it's standing it's difficult to describe for sure. So you ask me why it represents right.

Darren Evans: 58:04

Yeah, that's right.

Romain Richli: 58:05

So the myth I want to represent, or wanted here to represent, is the engagement people can or can't have with climate, where actually a lot of people think it's not their thing. They are not the climate engineer, it's complicated, it is science and there is one side that says yes, it is science and it's science-based and the science is clear. Nevertheless, there is another part that is just us being human and having the right behaviors, the right reflexes to become actors and have a behavior that changes the world around us. So when I hear it's not my thing, you are the head of climate, or that's not me, that's others Actually, no, not really, that's everyone. I'm not bigger than you are, I'm the same. I'm just trying to gather people all around the same table for all of us to have an action and change the world.

Romain Richli: 59:02

Rather than me changing the world. You think I'm going to change the world. I can't do that alone. I'd like to. I can't do that alone and we are many in my situation trying to change things. We are still alone, so we need to build together. So if you listen to that, for example, rest assured you have a role to play, you have a part to play and finding I mean, even engaging with climate is such a joy because you find your alignment, you find your A-purpose in life and finding this alignment is a big change and it's going to change your life. You're going to change the world around you and this is going to change your life because you know you are doing the right thing.

Darren Evans: 59:47

Fantastic. I love that. And you're exactly right. Let's destroy that. That's a myth. Go do it, romain. Yes, full-handed splat down, love it. That was easy, romain. It's been fantastic to speak with you today. Appreciate your time and you coming on the podcast.

Romain Richli: 1:00:10

We had a good chat. Thank you very much, darren, I enjoyed it. Thank you.

Darren Evans: 1:00:14

Just before we go, one last question for you. What advice would you give to somebody that works for an organization who finds that their organization are a bit backwards or not as fast as or not as engaged with making changes in climate as they would like to be? What advice would you give to them?

Romain Richli: 1:00:37

Yeah, that is a good question and I hope they are.

Romain Richli: 1:00:43

I would hope that they are not such people and I know there are many many, and it's hard to find a positioning in the business and in a company to be strong enough and brave enough or crazy enough to raise a hand and say guys, I'm not sure we are doing the right thing, but still, again, it's about this alignment that is described before. It requires some strength and some yes, some strength and some willingness to change the things. But once you do it, you feel so much better, you feel that you are doing the right thing again, you are on your tracks, you know who you are and you know what you do things. So that's for the business. I think it's good to raise issues. We have concerns and I think the business are going to listen to that. Whether they are going to act immediately, it's something to manage, but they are going to listen. Because the businesses are listening to that and to form an individual perspective, it feels good to do the right thing.

Darren Evans: 1:01:45

Thanks for that advice. Thank you Bye for now.