So you're a serial entrepreneur. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Is that a humble? Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Just so one leaves another, really.

It wasn't, it wasn't an accident really, you know, Yeah. What was it, where did this start then? Where did the entrepreneurial journey start for you? Uh, it all started, I [00:06:00] wanted to start my own architectural practice starts. That was the beginning, and then before that, actually back. So we start from the where I come from.

Yeah, yeah, sure. The beginning it all, it all started with a curiosity. When I, when I started in architecture studies in Liverpool and, uh. When I walked through the cities, my question was, why do we design and build ugly buildings? So that was the really first question. And then following the architectural studies, I realized, and I had a job actually when I finished my first year, my tutor offered me a work experience at his practice.

I was very surprised to see that what he was teaching us, Versus what he did in the real world. It's completely different. How so? Huge contrast. Because, you know, the design, there's no Architecture meant to be inspiring. You know, we architect, we shape the environment. But in the real world, you can't do anything, really.

Everything, anything we propose, anything interesting, beautiful, [00:07:00] or more sustainable, you always, you know, boils down to the cost. The QAs say, no, that's too expensive. This is too risky. And therefore, and that the climate will follow. So we'll always compromise the design to, to the finance, which is, I was very disappointed.

And then I thought there must be a way. So when I finished my part one, I had a job opportunity at Fox apartments when I was introduced this technology called the generative components. And it's a parametric design, generative design tool and being used by Foster Partners, developed by Bentley Systems in partnership with, uh, Foster Partners and KPF.

So they use this technology delivered, have delivered many landmark buildings. And then I was, I was so inspired and I thought, this is the future, but this could be the, the technology could be the answer, solving this, you know, the, the problems of, uh, in the AEC industries. So when I. Finish my part one. I did.

I decided to do [00:08:00] this, you know, more research for my dissertation in parametric design, computational design and digital fabrication, which I believe this this is the way forward. So when I finished university, uh, well, actually, when I designed this, uh, when I for the. During my studies, I create, invented a topic and my tutor wasn't really happy, Lee, there are 50 topics, can't you just choose one of them?

And I said to him, this is why I believe this is the future. I really like to do that. And, uh, yeah, I didn't get much support. And then what was the topic that you composition design? And, uh, so from design engineering to manufacturing, because the moment you can see, you know, the architects. When you design something, it's just a, it's just a vision.

How much does it cost? How does it, how does the building stand up? We don't know. We speak, speak to the engineer, speak to the QS. So that's the problem. You don't, apart from vision creation, we, we, we very limited to other, [00:09:00] other expertise. So I thought, you know, we must be, you know, if you look at the, um, the traditional role of architects, architecting in Greek, you meet 16th century.

Architects were not only the master of spatial effects, they were closely involved in the construction process, engineering, manufacturing, assembly, everything, as a man does all. And then it was, you know, the architect's man, chief builder, master builder. So, so that's the idea, you know, you know, but unfortunately it's been shifted away.

Architecture's, you know, vision, creation, and ideas, philosophy. but not very practical in many ways. So that's why we suffer a lot. I mean, architects used to be the leader of the entire process. We're still the lead consultant with a title because something goes wrong, we'll be blamed. But in terms of the power of how the building gets progressed, what gets included, what gets omitted.

Yeah. That's, [00:10:00] that's nowhere near like it used to be. No, no way. And it's interesting that you mentioned about QS. It's because it seems as though the QS's role has been elevated over the years. And I don't think a QS existed back in ancient Greece. No. Architects did. Talk to the architects. He knows everything or she knows everything.

So that's, so that's interesting how that shift has happened. And what you're mentioning there about the architect being more of a visionary and a. designer, as opposed to that title of master builder. Yes. And there was a shift, there was a split during the running song, you know, the architects more like art, philosophy stuff, and the builders, you know, the heavy lifting, the laborers, you know.

So that's the kind of, uh, from that point, it just went separate ways. And now you can see in the ACE industry, A& E architects, engineers, like husband and wife, holding each other's hands. We'll [00:11:00] make it. But the contractor on the other hand. They come from very different backgrounds, different philosophy, different ideology, and different mindset, and different objectives.

Everything's different. So there's a huge gap between A. E. and C. So that's why we have, um, so many problems, you know. Especially, you know, when the construction starts. There's so many moving parts, which is out of control. And then that's why when the clients, they're very conscious, you know, uh, more or less as well, kind of, you know, who can rely on, you know, the architect produces a drawing package, have absolutely, utterly no clue how much it costs me.

We're running a business. It's all about ROIs, right? And the engineers want to keep up, make sure that the building stands up, you know, nothing goes wrong. The only. You know, only person they could rely on is the QS, the educated guess, benchmark things, how much of a sweat meter will, what's the risk behind that and et cetera.

And ultimately it's the [00:12:00] contractor, principal contractor who will deliver, you know, the final product. And there's a process. So it's so challenging and so many moving parts and there's beyond control and then you start shooting the costs and that's where we get the problems, you know. So how then were you looking to address those issues?

So, yeah, my passion is technology. When I started, you know, when I follow my research, you know, my dissertation in, uh, computational design, digital fabrication, I propose a pavilion. I designed pavilion for the, And I managed to be for the London Olympics. And sadly, you know, that that wasn't the pavilion idea.

It wasn't part of the curriculum for the my part, too. So I just didn't give up. I did two projects at the end. One's my final project and the other one was, you know, a pavilion. I wanted to prove the concept, you know, the this is the future. So how did you manage to get involved in designing? Creating, building a [00:13:00] pavilion for the London Olympics.

That was the question. You know, the, you know, the challenge they had, it wasn't just solving design problems. The question was, who's the client? Who's going to build it? We're going to build it. I couldn't answer those questions, especially, you know, that time was 2010. When I finished my part two, it was in the middle of a pandemic, you know, the, uh, the recession.

It was tough, wasn't it? Like, uh, yeah, very difficult, but I thought I just believed I think this is why I really want to do. This is my passion. I don't want to be part of the problems. You know, when I finished my university design this. Naughty boxes around cities. I want to do better than that. You know.

So how did you go from that part then? 2010. Yeah. In that economic state. I remember that very well. How did you then get to the point of getting someone to agree? Yeah. For you to design, build, A pavilion for the London 2012 Olympics. Yes, that was, I started, I had a full time job, obviously. And, uh, you know, in the practice in London [00:14:00] and, uh, and I started pitch in writing letters, pitch letters to large organizations.

And that was very stressful, actually. We're very hard, literally finish work. You know, you work in architectural practices. You work very late, got home, had some food, Beat myself up, some Red Bull, coughed black coffee, and then yeah, kept working. Sometimes it's like, I was so focused and my wife woke up in the morning and goes, What are you doing?

So what do you mean? It's 6 30 in the morning. Wow. I just realized I didn't sleep that night. You know, that's what that level folks are. I need to make this. I need to make this happen. This is, this is the vision has to be delivered. I mean, why was so worried? Because what if, what do you fail? Are you going to jump into the river?

River Thames? Yeah, well, yeah, definitely. What if you fail? Definitely about your health as well. I'm thinking having, well, just uncertainty. I want to take, I want to take the challenge. You know, there's a sense of urgency. There's a [00:15:00] desire to, to make a difference. I want to design architecture, not just a building, but the challenge is always boils down to cost.

How much does a building cost? Nobody could answer it. Architects definitely couldn't because the training, the professional training has got nothing to do with the costing or, you know, building construction, et cetera. So that's, uh, I believed, I mean, this has to be done. Somebody has to do it. It's not going to be easy.

So I just, you know, I started pitching this letter after thousands of rejection and failures, luckily I managed to convince a range of organizations like Hewlett Packard, who sponsors 3D printing, Bentley Systems software. Rumble engineer, they sponsored, you know, the engineering services and, you know, uh, you know, Kevin is equal timber company, sponsor the timber, et cetera.

And I had to speak to steel fabricators, a friend of mine, he's a very famous sculptor. He uses steel fabricator in Norton. They give me massive discounts. I had some saving and, uh, there's a tensile fabrics [00:16:00] as well, you know, sponsored by such Ferrari and manufactured in Bristol called the tensile fabric.

So I was, uh, yeah, I became the principal contractor. Somebody has to build it. And, um, you know, I didn't have a choice. There was no client, there was no principal contract. There's no process project manager. I was everyone except the, uh, the engineering services. You know, obviously I couldn't do it. So you decided to set the organization up to be that principal contractor.

Yeah. As a client, many heads, architects, the lead design architects, the principal contractor, the client, the project manager, the end user, everything. It was quite challenging because at that time, it was, um, we, why did, did was, you know, the paperless construction, design engineering construction and everything we did, like timber frame, we generated the manufacturing code, you know, that drives the, the robotic arm to cut the timber pieces and that the steel frame we did, uh, you know, the detail 3d modeling, [00:17:00] I had to coordinate with a steel fabricator down to the, you know, the steel plates.

Well, how, how many, what's the, what's the angle for welding? So when I just issued a solid 3D model to the 3D fabricator, and in terms of assembly, Oh, the construction, if you call it, and we just had a volunteers, a student from the first, it was a very complex double curvature structure, and then we had no, you know, experience, can't build this, just a bunch of a sweaty student, including myself, and we just put this all pieces together, you know, the pavilion, each one consists of 997 unique pieces, if you put in the wrong components in the wrong place, or the right component in the wrong orientation, The next one just won't fit.

And the, the, the accuracy was plus minus 0. 05 millimetre. It had to be, we needed this accuracy because you know, like, if each one, imagine one millimetre bigger, so 0. 5 millimetre on each side, 1, 000 [00:18:00] pieces of lasers would miss off. So you can never build this. So this is kind of very challenging. And then, yeah, I did discover this is a business model really.

You know, when I speak, when I spoke to some, before I build it, I spoke to the QSs, GMT. And they said, how much do you think the, this is probably going to cost me? He looked at it, 1 million. I said, what, what? Where's that 1 million come from? So he, and then he, he looked at me. Have you built anything in your life?

I said, no. Well, that's your biggest challenge. Make it happen. Money is not a problem. Money is not the most worrying thing you should have. Your life is a building. So that was, yeah, I know why I've done this when I did this project using leveraging the technology, you know, automation, you know, robotics and did all the heavy lifting.

It didn't require a skilled worker. The only cost of the 100 and 148, 000, 146, 000 pounds, which is one million, which is a snip, isn't it? On that [00:19:00] million pounds. That was, uh, yeah, so how does that translate then into something that can be used on a day to day basis in the construction industry right now?

Because I see the gap. You see the architect and the QS and the client, and at times it feels like that they are working against each other, even though they want to work together. Yeah, they need each other, but they hate each other. It does. It does feel like that. And I love the analogy that you've made there of the M& E, uh, that they're like a married couple.

They hold hands and don't worry, we're going to get through this together. That's great. But, but, but I don't see that type of union or connection with the other. Disciplines very frequently, so, so infrequent, um, how, how can you take the things that you have learned and the experience that you've had, and then how can that be overlaid as commonplace in the industry?

It's the many issues actually, and then, you [00:20:00] know, it's just, that was a very beginning. I thought the notion was just saying, I want to design and build. Beautiful architecture, beautiful, the sustainable architecture, that was the, that was a dream, but when I started and I realized we need a software, we can't just use an on shelf software to build any buildings, you can do that.

Like, for example, being building information modeling. So what he does, you do a 3D model with some, some intelligence behind that. But ultimately, you export 2D drawing packages and use another third party software for specification. Such as NBS and then the, the con, what the contractor want, just gimme the drawing package and the specification, they price, price job based on that.

Mm. So the whole thing is self-defeating. 'cause you do the 3D bim, you end up issuing 2D packages. It's one step forward, two steps back. Mm. And the rules of disaster, in my opinion, it's a 2D drawings. There's no data, there's no quantity. So when you give the same [00:21:00] package and specifications to different building contractors, they come back with different prices.

I mean, much different, massive, huge, mass difference. So, for example, you know, the clients I pitched as a job is 10 million pounds, an apartment development, and he priced it, he, he's very experienced. He's been, he told me he's been around for 35 years. He said, uh, I don't need a QS. I look at the site. I know how much it costs me roughly, and it's pretty accurate.

He knows he's been there and done that. And, uh, and the thing is at 10 million pounds, And that when they look at the price, three years construction from, from the beginning to, to the turnkey to the completion handover, it's going to be 13. 2 million plus contingency or co ops, everything. And why did he, why would he looking for some, you know, contractor, he's willing to commission the job.

So contractor will price for 8. 6 million when he knows it's going to cost at 30. Yeah. And I'll raise the question. Why would you do that? [00:22:00] So if I gave this job, it's to somebody who priced 11 or 12 million pounds and I'll end up paying for 15. Mm-hmm . I'll be in the big trouble. 'cause you know, everybody knows there's a variation.

But from the business point of view, if you cost you one pound to, to produce something, you need to sell at least 1.1 60 to make a very thin profit margin. Why would you sell it? For 75 P because of my, my, my entire family from Eastern Europe can come to work for you for nothing. It's not sustainable. Is it?

We always, we always talk about sustainability. How sustainable is the AC industry? I mean, especially construction business. Think about that. It just, it just doesn't make any sense. But the thing is the cultures we established a culture. People. In a way, it's quite naive. The reason because I wouldn't say naive.

I mean, the action, you know, they, they, they want a competitive tender. [00:23:00] It's a 13. 2 million pound job and the bank's willing to give 14 and a half million to finish it and they give the 10s, they go away, it gives 8. 6. It just doesn't make any sense from the business point of view. And what happened is if the contractor start issuing variation orders, it shouldn't some time, we should have some more money.

Cause everybody knows nobody can build it for 8. 6 million. It's a 30 million pound job, you know? So if they fail to demonstrate, I mean contractors, if they fail to demonstrate that and the client's not willing to pay. The contracts are getting a huge trouble that you can see so many contracts go around, you know, want to borrow money because there's a project on delay, they need more money for cash flow, all sorts of problems, lots of stress, you know, just not sustainable.

We always talk about the mental issues in the construction industry, you know, you know, the people not getting paid, like if you see the report, I've saw there's a report, interview report between [00:24:00] early 2023 to 24. There were two and a half, 2,400 construction companies wouldn't bust. 2000 is a lot.

Actually think about that. Why? Because this, this is wrong business model. And then, you know, they, they, they price something way below the, you know, the actual delivery price and they walk into the trouble and they can't pay the bills and they go bust. That's the biggest problem. And then we talk about sustainability.

We tend to talk about mental health in the construction industries. Have we talked about the people who's gone bust? They're brave enough to start the construction business and then years later, they go bust. They lose their business destroyed. They lost the family members. Some people got like, you know, depression or even suicide.

Think about that. How does, how does that cycle get broken? The vicious circle, that's the thing. So, technology, I believed, technology. That's when I started [00:25:00] the, uh, thanks to Brexit. The Brexit happened, and I thought this is it, you know, this is a good opportunity because when I, it's all about time frame.

When I, when I finished the pavilion, I, I was pitching this kind of, it wasn't just a pavilion, it was the business model workflow. I pitched this, this idea to many people. Big contractors like including quaintain and lendis. They sponsor me the lands, you know in you know outside the o2 arena And they look at it.

Yeah, this is very interesting But no, thanks. Okay, because We had a cheap eastern european labor force. So there was no sense of urgency, but the brexit happened now all the labor the labor force is Dramatically reduced and following that the pandemic You So now, you know, I think during the pandemic, the four, over 400, 000 people left the UK, Eastern Europeans, and the labor cost is so expensive now in the UK, and especially skilled labor.

There's a shortage. So the [00:26:00] technology. I, I initially started developing with, uh, I was in collaboration, partnership with Dassault system. This is the French aviation software is being used for aerospace, defense, automotive, you know, like jet fighters and nuclear submarines all the way to the airbus you travel.

So this, this, this work in the industry is all the DFMA design for manufacturing assembly in a way is that you more than everything in the real is a digital twin, a real digital just a 3d geometry, but also. That has got metadata, when this parts, who produces parts, where they come from, and all the interface, configuration, everything.

So how is that different from BIM? Oh, it's next level to DFMA. BIM is, I don't know what it does. I mean, people use, BIM has promised so many things. Collaboration, integration and, you know, coordination, especially. But people not using that for the right reasons. And it doesn't work. It's too slow. The software is [00:27:00] built on the wrong kernel, and it's not powerful enough as well to handle the, you know, the, you know, like the camera used, there are thousands of parts.

They don't model in that level of detail. Because when you design a camera or anything, like a watch, You know, you procure these parts. You don't price how much per cubic millimeter, something like, how do you do that? You need to, you need, these are, these are the parts. We need Chinese to make it or the Swiss needs to be making it.

And then this is a global supply chain and they'll bring them together. And the assembly in Switzerland, you've got this beautiful watch, but building, they don't work like that. Yeah. And you're right. I've tried to look at the construction industry. through the lens of manufacturing quite a number of times.

And I've looked at it through the automotive manufacturing, probably the most frequently. And it's interesting that you make a comparison about a watch, you know, lots of different parts coming together. But the thing that I see that's the variation, [00:28:00] which is, which, is between the construction industry and other manufacturing industries is that you don't have that mass production at the same specification.

So if you're to reproduce the suit that you've got on or the tie that you have or the watch, the production of that, you can do tens of thousands, if not millions of that same, and that will go off on the line. Yeah. But. You can't do that, or we've not done that. Maybe we should do that in the construction industry.

I'm doing that, actually. It's the techniques being used. So with the DFMA, Design for Manufacturing, I've been, I've built this, you know, like a, you know, like a product library. So we'll capture knowledge, we'll build, understand all the product constraints. And they build the engineering templates. For example, the Waller House is a luxury house in Surrey I designed.

We use the Kingspan, you know, the cladding cassette systems. So we build everything in house. [00:29:00] And we design the building envelope, which is a surface, and subdivide it. And then, anyone like my five year old daughter, when she was five, click on that. He automates all the panels down to bolts and nuts. Build materials, how many bolts and nuts and washers.

Cladding rails, everything, and the panels, automated shop drawings, unfolded panels, all automated, generated. And the template, engineering template we'll capture is the product constraints. For example, that system, it can't be wider than 1. 5, and the maximum height is 3. 2. So if you divide this reference geometry, bigger than that, it doesn't generate that, at all.

Do you know why? Because it's important. So when ArcSight design, you know, say cladding systems, they don't know the constraints. They just design. It looks nice. Every single panel is exactly five millimeter bigger than the, uh, the actual product constraint. And once they tender it and they realize it's going to be three times more expensive because [00:30:00] They bespoke.

They need to be tested again, even though it's a five millimeter bigger, but that's bespoke. So that's something we don't know. So that we capture this knowledge, build a template, it prevent people making mistakes. And the following that, the cost, we need to know the cost. I did an experiment. I initially sent this, uh, elevation drawings to, to the manufacturer and said, can you price it for me?

And they came back with an estimate 186, 000 pounds. That's about what this envelope. And then two weeks later, I send this, uh, the build materials and shop drawings. They look again, 124 and I called the guy and said, uh, why is it so much cheaper? I'm just curious, you know? And they said, well, cause we based on your elevation drawing.

We only, we only estimate it. We had a price in the risk. What you do want to hear is I press 150 and the four months later, when you come back, yeah, it's 186 now. You just live a very better experience, bitter experience and bitter taste. [00:31:00] You don't want that. So this kind of thing, the search, I mean, before the pandemic and the war, obviously this is all we're having now.

All the developers were looking for certainty. I mean, uh, competitive tender, who's cheaper. And now that we're interested in certainty, how much does it cost me exactly? So the way we're doing now, when I start, well, let's go back one step back. When I developed this technology. I pitched to some developers.

They were very excited about it. This, this is the future, man. Oh, by the way, have you ever built anything with this technology itself as a principal contractor? I said, I'm not, I'm not builder. I'm sorry I can't be a Guinea pig. This is a huge risk. Mm. I can see the potential, but you haven't done anything yourself.

I can't be the Guinea pig man. So I just, I just, I was so gutted, you know? I said, wow. How do I, it looks like I had to start my own construction business. Otherwise you can never [00:32:00] take Creole from zero to one. You can never convince anybody you haven't done anything yourself. So that's the kind of the ideas, you know, dream big, start small and lead by example.

So I started my construction company and then start building and they're using this technology, the philosophy and the workflow, you know, he generates all the bill material quantities, anything company manufacture that we. We develop light gauge steel frame systems, so you automate the frame. Obviously, you need to double check with the structure engineer, make sure they are happy with it.

Double start or triple start the diagonal bracing structures. And they automate and generate manufacturing code. So you can send this code to the Howie machine and give it to all the manufacturers. UK, Ireland, Europe. They give you a quotation. And the rest is built, how many bricks it goes in, how many sheets of boards, plasterboards apply, you know, you have the real cost.

So from that moment, I can, I can start, I've established open book contract. Now I build, I do [00:33:00] construction work with, uh, for, you know, the high net worth individuals. They buy land with the planning or sometimes has stuff from scratch, you know. These people have done what the multimillionaires or billionaires.

They don't understand the nitty gritty details of property development, but what they're really good at, numbers, money, they understand that. So when you say variation, what's going up exactly? I can tell them exactly. This is the build materials, which is about, we finished the ground floor and we're building materials for the second, first floor.

But from the 1st of January, 2025, we're going to build the second and third floor. This is the latest cost of price going up. Because that's another problem we have with the principal contractor. The pricing they propose is unrealistic. It's much lower than it's supposed to be. And they need to be very creative, make something up, make something out of nothing, to get some money back.

And the client understands that as well. But the thing is, this whole thing is so um, [00:34:00] so blurred. Do you see what I mean? Absolutely. So I've had, um, someone on the podcast, um, from KPMG, he was saying that there is no limit to the amount of money that's out there for projects. And he's talking about large infrastructure projects, not buildings.

Yeah. But the thing that the clients or the people or the organizations with that significant amount of money, the thing that they struggle with is the belief and trust. That actually the project is going to be delivered. So let me start that again. The thing that they struggle with is that the project is going to be delivered on time and it's going to be delivered on budget.

That never happens. And the reason it doesn't happen, I think, is because of what you're speaking to here. Yeah. Is that the approach. Yeah. And there almost seems to be, so yeah, the approach is called a competitive tender, but competitive tender appears to be to me at times, let's see [00:35:00] how low we can get the fee, even though we know it's going to cost us more than what we're sending out for the fee.

And then we can pat ourselves on the back because the client will say it's acceptable when we put in a variation. Because variations aren't bad. The bad thing is coming up with the quotation initially to say, this is how much the project is going to cost. Even though we know that that's not true. So to me, it feels a little bit like, you know, the story of the emperor with no clothes on.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. It feels like that is everyone's like, you've got these fine clothes and you know, you need to be a certain status and a certain level of intelligence in order for you to see it. If you can't see it, then you're not clever enough. Hmm. But he just needs kind of some child in the crowd to say, actually, he's naked.

It's the business model, really, the mindset and the culture, isn't it? Because the culture is, you know, we just need some numbers to start with. And in the end, we know it's going to cost double or triple the price. So, I mean, why can't we get this [00:36:00] right in the first place? That's what the DFMA approach all about, you know?

So what you're doing here is then you're saying that the software that you have created completely overcomes and deals and deals and solves that problem. Yeah, there was a way to work it out. So we actually, we developed software and they started construction comedy just for the sake of the point. Yeah, because you need that credibility for someone else to say, When they, sorry, you need that credibility for when someone says to you, where, where does this work in practice here, here, here.

Exactly. Yeah. Because no one wants to be a guinea pig. Yeah. Previously I spoke to the clients is, Oh, have you been anything? No, sorry. It can't be guinea pig. Now I'm pitching other tier one contractors be consultancy firms. Now the discussion is, this is the project I built this, I built that. Okay. So that's how many projects you now have under your belt?

The first one, there's a story actually quite interesting. The first one, Fallen Palace Road in near Hammersmith. So one of my investors, he bought his land with planning permission. We started with a architect, [00:37:00] lead architects, you know, did a detailed design stage. And then following that, I pitched this, I can build this better using my technology.

And, uh, yeah, we did all the scans and everything, you know, not actually, we, we, we did a DFMA design. The 3D modeling modeling in using our technology and then this is story behind it is quite interesting is the site is very was very tight and then, you know, some buildings facing the main road full and pass roads, some, you know, the previous owner build illegal basements without planning or building control, you know, back in the days, it was a long, long time ago, so we didn't have any data.

So we had this, uh, piles goes into the ground, top meters in. Um, just alongside the boundary. So it was my first construction experience as a principal contractor, actually. And I was, I was quite conscious because we, we did a trial pit, for example, we checked where is the next door's footings, you know, of retaining walls.

And it was all [00:38:00] good. We did five of those. It looks fine. I just had to sleep this night. It was my first project, you know, I didn't want to fail because when you run a business, when you say. I don't know. That's a bad sign, isn't it? And that basement in the ground, I don't know where they are exactly. So I pay myself.

I commissioned the, you know, the 3D scanner. I scanned that and I everything 3D and the measure my proposed foundation, folding the piles, capping beams against the internal wall. Guess what I've discovered? There's a wall of the walls in the, in the back. The internal wall to the boundary center, the boundary fence, 207 millimeter in, you know, somewhere in the basement, two meters down the ground.

And I look at it, well, I had to inform the client, look, this is what I've discovered. We can't do the piling around this area. We had to change the design. So I proposed extension time and the variation order, we changed the design. [00:39:00] Imagine if we just did it anyway. I wouldn't be here by now huge issues, bankruptcy really isn't my first project and that was the beginning of the ends.

You know, people soon in the next door neighbor punch into the basement, which is why that client that you approached initially didn't want to take the risk, right? Because these are the things that you find out as you go along and start to get involved in projects, technologies, different workflow. We didn't rely on the 2d drawing packages, which we had before.

One crop section. For the party wars as a reference drawing for the, for the technical design detail. But if we did that, I wouldn't be around, you know, I'll be sued by court cases, you know, I wouldn't be here by now. Talk to me about waste, um, and about timelines and how dealing with. No, let me, let me refresh that question.

Talk to me about waste and about how the software that you have designed and that you have got [00:40:00] really deals with the issue of waste, um, to make the industry more sustainable. Yeah, for example, like a steel frame system as a building, you know, a superstructure that weighs absolutely minimum. So when you make it, the manufacturer drives the machine.

It's just, it's just a set, it does that, you know, and uh, for other things we'll do panelization, internal finishes, uh, how many, you know. Cladding systems of bricks or everything, you know, uh, brick slips. It's just absolutely, you know, this how many bricks we need exactly We need a 10 Contingency lost stolen or damaged, you know, so everything's you need the tangible figures and facts Which we don't have at the moment using beam software or traditional 2d cat systems.

So this is quite um Because people come from the finance industry. They look at spreadsheets, you know You know, they just It doesn't, it needs, it needs, they want to know the numbers, they need to know the figs and facts. So nobody [00:41:00] can provide this, uh, this answer at the moment. So that's what I've been working on really, trying hard.

We initially developed a software with DASL system and realized there's so many constraints, the dependencies on them, what we wanted to achieve. didn't quite align with their vision because they come from aerospace defense sector. So, and then I approached, well, Siemens approached him, had a chat with me.

They liked the article we had on the AEC magazines. We started a conversation and realized later on decided to go with the Siemens using their kernel and develop Crayola X software. So now what we're doing is we generate all the bill of quantities and, um, open book contract. This is how much it'll cost you.

Build materials. This is our prelims, how many people we need, how long it takes, all the machines, everything. And this is our profit margin, 20 percent on top. And everything we purchase, we also show the receipt to the clients. This is what we do. This is what we purchased so far. This is what we've done. [00:42:00] If it's gone up, you can immediately demonstrate what's going up exactly because people want to know the numbers because these people, our client, they understand you guys running a business, they made themselves millions or billions pounds because there's a profit.

They understand you run a business, you have to make a profit. That's okay. But when the price has gone up, that's where the tricky part is. What's going on? Exactly. They want to see down to pennies. What's going on? I want to see the facts with the contracts. They can't provide because they prize everything like like a McDonald's happy meal, you know, labor and material in one.

The profit margin 32 percent in this package. I don't want to show that. You see what I mean? So this is where the, I mean, problems are, you know, if you failed in the negotiation, for example, there's a time frame, there's a variation order. You issued the client got three weeks to make a decision. And he passed the deadline.

What's gonna happen? Extend your time? You're gonna charge them more money? This pack is only 50, 000. Package variation and you drag into, you [00:43:00] have your own QS team trying to make something. Oh, this has gone up and you pass it to the client, the client to get their own, you know, you know, QS experience, QS, you know, the bodyguards to make sure that interrogate, study, interrogate it and come back.

We disagree with that. We need to negotiate. I want you to take some hits as well. It's not just us. You might miss the deadline, you know, this exercise, think about that financially, all these people get involved. How much does it cost you? Probably like 20 grand already. So it all adds up in time, stress, more money spent on things like this.

How does that make sense? Why can't we just make it more transparent, using the right technology, obviously. You know, we see what's going on, we understand that. Everybody's aware of it, and then we just need to move on, really, because you as a client, you know, you started a business, you understand that there's a risk, there's no risk for your business.

So yeah, certainty and transparency. That's I think that's what we need [00:44:00] and we're trying to establish as well, using the technology. Lee, I think that we're in a position now where we can go to the demolition zone. Yeah.

We're back into the demolition zone and Lee you have created this monstrosity of a of a construction piece of art. Yes. So for those people that are listening, um, it's it's it's fairly tall. But it's kind of quite thick at the top end of the, of the tower. What does it represent? Oh, the other thing I forgot is it's got the, uh, the brown donkey and the stop sign.

The stop sign. Yeah. I put the little wild cards in that, in that bag of block. Donkey or dodgy or whatever you call that thing. Uh, yeah. And what does it represent? What does it represent? We need to stop the unsustainable, you know, business model and the practice, you know, you know, as you can, as you know, you know, any property developments, [00:45:00] You know, the client start with a very conscious trying to hide any points, any consultant or contracts as cheap as possible to start with, because they need to save their money for, for the future contingencies and the contracts are bidding for a job for way below the actual costs.

They just, they just don't get it themselves. They're, they're footing the door and they want to solve the problems afterwards. fail to do so, it leads to bankruptcy. And yeah, this is a whole thing. I think we always talk about the sustainability. The question for ourselves is how sustainable is our business?

We talk about thriving construction, but can we even survive in the construction business? So this is my concern and the solution is definitely needed and the change is also needed. I love that. What is it then? that is needed and how do we overcome this? How is it before you physically clear up or demolish this mess?

How are we going to do that verbally? First of all, what's the answer? [00:46:00] Adoption, uh, be open minded and, uh, you know, leadership taking more risks, you know, and, uh, to, to, to, to make positive changes in our industry. Can I add a one thing actually, have you ever heard this story called, uh, no one gets sacked for buying IBM.

No, I've seen it back in the days in the 1960s and 70s. IBM was conceived the most reliable computer. So if you, if you're the director or decision maker within the organization and decide to use Hewlett Packard and Dell months and years down the line, something will go wrong because it's technology.

Something will happen. Something will go wrong. And the problem is if you didn't buy IBM, something goes wrong. Yeah. You will get sacked. So this is kind of mindset is about the risk reversal within the organizations. Yes, there are new new techniques, new technology out there, but people are very risk to reversal, you know.

But this is damaging [00:47:00] actually in the short term. Maybe take no risk in the long run. You know, yeah. So, you know, You'd make, you know, problematic. Problematic. That's it. That's interesting. I have now that you've explained it. Now I do remember that, that story coming out. And, um, I think that the way that I heard that story was to do with Apple, I don't think it was to do with Hewitt Packard.

Maybe, maybe I've got IBM. Yeah, no, I'm on about the, um, the, the riskier organization was Hewitt Packard was HP, um, But the safe bet was, was IBM. Definitely it was. And what, the reason that people were making those decisions is because they were worried about their job. Yes. They weren't worried about doing the right thing.

Exactly. And they weren't worried about the outcome longer term. They just didn't want to put their head above the parapet. The self interest and ultimately, you know, drives business out of, out of, out of business. So they lose their jobs. That's something we should, you know, encourage people to work as a [00:48:00] team, you know, some, some new ideas come in.

opens, you know. Be open to try something different. It's not, it's difficult, especially running a big, like a tier one contractor running the PLC companies. You know, it's, it's a very, it's challenging. You can't just jump in, you know, you can't just do U turns, it's aircraft carrier, isn't it? So they have to be very calculated risks, you know, uh, with the teams.

I understand that. But for us, it's, you know, it's difficult as well. It's trying to convince people. There are. Technologies, but nobody wants to be in a guinea pig, but we started our own construction company, but this is what we built and now we, we have, we have a business. So because something more tangible, but they are, they are intangible kind of enterprises.

That's the thing we should open to them as well. There's so many startups, new ideas, we should give them a try as well. Leo, I love that. Do you want to destroy the myth? Yeah, absolutely. We're going to give it a punch. Go for it. Destroy it.[00:49:00] 

I love that. That is great. Lee, I wonder if you can just delve into some of the things that you think are really important when it comes to setting up your own business. You're an entrepreneur. There are people that listen to this podcast that love the construction industry. And that have a desire to set their own business up, what advice would you give them?

It's not easy. First of all, it's challenging. You have to have this, um, mental strength and resilience to deal with the problems, you know, dealing with the people problems. And, uh, I used to be professional, professional swimmer. So, I mean, I had this kind of, uh, vaccination, if you like, you know, during the swimming, you know, I was competing with myself rather than others, more likely.

Yeah. Obviously there's a game. Yeah. He competes to win during the training, many years of training and nine years. He was literally competing with myself. So this is a kind of, um, [00:50:00] Starting on business, you had to deal with an up and downs is I've been struggling for a long time, really, because this is based on what I do, you know, you know, I just can't take the normal job.

It is a design some box with a pitch roof, so called house. It pays the bills. I want to do better than that, especially when I do want to make a difference. So that's the biggest challenge, you know, uh, to convince people, you know, uh, so yeah, this, I think, yeah, it's just be strong, you know, keep head down and then dream big, start small, lead by example.

And if you're architects. Don't talk build. That's what means around the Rose famous quote. You need to build. You really need to build You can't just talk about the ideas and visions. You need to build have a Practical experience hands on experience and prove yourself, you know, the architectural design vision Sustainability and the financial viability is three things are quite important critical What about your support network?

What [00:51:00] have you found to be useful in? In terms of running your own organization, setting something up with access to the human resources around you that aren't working for you, but that do work with you. Yeah, I've got very good team. Obviously, you know, the, the, the key success, a good team, people around you who, you know, it's a very important winning from winning the project to the good consult consulting team, you know, who can help you make it happen, give you a good professional advice.

Make it more, you know, professionally, make it more financially viable. That's one of the keys, my key challenge, you know. Can we make it cheaper? Can we make it better? Can we make it more sustainable? So yeah, this is the key factor for us, you know, the people around us, but also the technology we're developing, and the software.

Because we started independent software, and we're gonna launch it, the beta, the full beta version next year. So this is the technology we developed, We give away the [00:52:00] library so you can do a few clicks. It generates all the outcomes. So just de risk the whole thing, make it, you know, helping, you know, empower the architects so they can focus on the, their vision.

But in the same time, I have this, you know, the system in place, helping them, they can present the design ideas at the same time, the cost. I think this is a, and the new business model workflow. And then I think this is the game changing process. Yeah. I like that. What, um, what lessons have you taken from professional swimming?

That now are really, really vital in the role that you've got the moment in leading an organization. I think it was a mental kind of, uh, what do you call it? Mental strength. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the, yeah, when you run your own business. Yeah. So many things could happen, you know, you know, just, you need to be strong, really, you know.

That's the, that's if you fail or give up, failure happens. The thing [00:53:00] is, if you give up, that's where, that's the beginning of the end. So you need to keep going, put the hat down, you know, sail against the wind, was the Churchill's quote, something like that. And, uh, yeah, just keep going, believe in yourself and build a team.

Good people supporting people, your partners, your families and friends, and then, you know, colleagues is very important to people around you is the key to success. Leo, it's been great having you on the podcast today. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Appreciate your wisdom. Thank you. Cheers. Thank you.