Darren Evans: 0:13

You came straight out from university, straight into a predominantly male environment in uh civil engineering.

Bryony Coombs: 0:23

Yeah.

Darren Evans: 0:25

Um I've spoken to lots of females here where they've spoken about some of the horror stories around being female and working in a male-dominated environment. Yeah. Um and I think it's kind of well populated, but I'm sorry, I think it's well spoken about. Or I've I've heard lots of people speak about it, both males and females. I'm just wondering, of all of the conversations that you've heard about encouraging women that want to go into this type of industry to say that there is a place for you, as well as encouraging men to say and understand there's significant advantages to having someone that thinks completely differently and is of a different gender to you to come in this space. Is is there anything that you've not heard in the narrative commonly that you think is is worth mentioning to say, actually, no one's talking about this. I think this is really valuable.

Bryony Coombs: 1:20

So I would say that one of the big things that we talked a lot about, uh, or I think a lot about is what are we all doing to make space for people to be different and for things to be different. So as an industry, we are quite resistant to change, we're extremely risk-averse. And so things that are known and familiar, we hold on to those things and people they make people feel comfortable. And we see that a lot in the digital space and the transformation space, which is we'll talk more about that. But it's the same in the sort of diversity space. So I would say a lot of the conversations I've had with, especially like older men in the industry, is when you actually explain to them the sorts of things that you are subject to as a woman working on a building site, there's an assumption that these things have just, you know, just evaporated. Just evaporated. And my challenge back is what have you done to do that? Like you are now a senior manager. Uh what are you, what have you done to change that? And who is taking responsibility for changing that? So I think that one of the things that is really what I'm seeing more and more, I would say, in the last five years is people taking responsibility for how they can um, you know, make that change. So, yes, you have to kind of talk about or it shouldn't just be on underrepresented groups to have the confidence to voice what's happening to them. People need to create spaces where they can talk about that. And then when those voices are communicated, it's hearing and understanding. And then what am I doing to change that? If I want an industry where women can succeed and women can thrive, what am I doing? And whether that's a big thing or a small thing, you know, whether it's just uh, you know, making space or challenging in big and small ways when things aren't fair or things aren't playing out the way that you would want them to. Um, I think that that's important. I think for a long time it's been on underrepresented groups to represent themselves and then make the changes that they need. Um, but I think now we're seeing more people taking responsibility for the changes that they have to implement.

Darren Evans: 3:33

What's someone done for you to make a difference in this area specifically?

Bryony Coombs: 3:40

So I would say giving giving me the space to speak. Um in my previous company, I actually set up a reverse mentoring scheme within the company. So um it was talked about. Uh we had a consultant who we knew had been doing it for a bit. Um, and to be fair, the senior manager said, if you want to go and do it, like we'll give you the space and the resources to do it. So we started with 16 senior leaders within the company, and they were mentored by junior women working across sort of building sites. And the those spaces were we would sit, you know, go for coffee. I mentored two people through this scheme. We'd go for coffee, we'd talk about what was going on in our lives, just day-to-day stuff. And then if there were things that I wanted to bring up, I would bring it up. That was always really reassuring to then know, like if I went back into the workplace, like, oh, this I know this senior guy's got my back. Not that I would need that, but it is it's comforting. But also a platform for them to ask questions because I think if you've never experienced something, like you don't know. And you're working on your best assumption and working on what you think is right. But and I mean, you don't know how other people experience things. So, what I found most valuable from that was the calls I would get back on like a Friday afternoon. I've been thinking about what's happened this week and this situation has played out, and this is how I'm thinking of responding. I just wanted to check with you. How would you receive that as a young woman on site? Like, and I'd be like, if you said it like this, it would be well received. If you said it like this, I feel like your intention is good, but your execution might not land. And I think that disconnect like is reducing, and we're seeing more and more women move into senior roles and more underrepresented groups sort of generally across construction. But I think that being able to facilitate those conversations and for both sides to be able to confidently have those conversations is super important.

Darren Evans: 5:47

The confident element is so important, I think, because so I've got I've got three girls. Um, I was brought up by predominantly by my mum. So having conversations with women for me is is feels in a lot of ways more comfortable than it is with men, especially growing up. But even though that is the case, for me now it's still quite difficult. So I'll give an example today. What happened? Don't know what it was like when you were walking in, but it was tipping it down in rain. I was holding an umbrella and a lady was walking in front of me, yeah, and she was just getting soaked. She wasn't running, she was just soaked. And there was a big part of me that was like, let me just put this over her and walk with her and say, I don't know where you're going, but just for five minutes, you may just get some respite. Yeah. And then I was like, No, I can't do that because I'm male, and she might be like really freaked out by that and think, oh, what's this guy's like? And I I just want to help you.

Bryony Coombs: 6:43

I think that I think that that's the hardest thing, is you don't want to second guess just being a nice person. Yeah. Um, and you know, there's a lot of conversations in the media about these sorts of things about, you know, my intention was good, and but how was it received? And I think that that is so hard. You you don't know. I think in a professional environment, it's about having those people that you can call up and say, hey, like if I saw this happening and I said this, would it be helpful? Or would you just be like, oh, shut up, please leave me alone, kind of thing? So I think that that is really important is having those people that you can, you know, rain check your approach or your thoughts with, especially in the professional space. But yeah, I think it it is super hard. I just want to be a good person.

Darren Evans: 7:29

Yeah, just just but just to get that space where you've got someone that you're completely safe with, both sides, to say, this is what I'm thinking, this is my intention, this is what my plan is to do. Yeah, just give me some feedback.

Bryony Coombs: 7:42

And I think it for me, those conversations are also helpful because I'm just sat there thinking, this is so obvious. Like, why didn't we just do this? You know?

Darren Evans: 7:51

So, in that scenario, what should I have done? I didn't. I just held my umbrella and tried to walk a bit faster to go past her.

Bryony Coombs: 8:00

I wouldn't, yeah, maybe just say, like, do you want to share my umbrella for five minutes? But even in that sense, I know that you might completely overwhelm her. But um, yeah, I mean, just ask her while she can say his name.

Darren Evans: 8:12

I guess get lost and running screaming. Yeah, anyway. That's fun. So um, talk to me about Alice to kind of coin a phrase who the heck is Alice?

Bryony Coombs: 8:23

I know, yeah. We could just we could just play that that song. Um so yeah, so we're a um tech startup, we use AI to optimize construction schedules. Uh essentially, what you do is drag and drop your construction schedule into the tool. It becomes a constraint model. From there, you can model risks and opportunities, understand where you can sort of identify project accelerations, cost efficiencies, resource efficiencies, and use the platform to kind of help you build out your construction schedule.

Darren Evans: 8:57

Everyone's not everyone, maybe not everyone. People are concerned about AI. Yeah. And people are concerned, I think, for a few reasons. One is losing their job to AI. The other one is the stuff that comes back from AI is just not going to be right because it will just hallucinate and come out with all kinds of nonsense. Um, and I think the other thing that people are concerned about with AI is they just don't know how to use it that well. So as soon as you say AI, I'm wondering how many people like instantly have said, right, no, I'm checking it out. That's a problem. Uh-huh. Um, what would you say to kind of retain their attention to kind of say, no, no, no, AI is a good thing. This is a good thing as opposed to anything you need to run away and be afraid of.

Bryony Coombs: 9:40

I think with any, it was with any technology, it's identifying how it's going to add value to your life. So with Alice, you know, you can get the tool to do a lot of the tedious tasks that, you know, take a lot of time. Resource loading a schedule in traditional software takes ages. In Alice, it's a lot easier, it's a lot quicker. It's something that people don't do because it's hard to do and it takes a lot of time, which people don't have. Schedulers on construction projects do not have spare time. Um, and so it's understanding where it can really add value. And I think that the concern that AI is going to take our jobs is we get this question all the time. It's not AI isn't going to take your job. You need to build construction schedules to use Alice, which it which uses AI. You need to have construction expertise, you need to understand how to build, how to schedule, how to plan construction projects. But people using AI are able to do certain tasks a lot quicker and more efficiently. And that's what we're seeing with Alice. So I'm super passionate about driving efficiencies within the construction space. Now, that is big scale. How can we build projects quicker with you know a more efficient use of resource? But on an individual level, as an individual person, it's how can I do the tasks I have to do on my to-do list weekly, monthly, quicker? And that's what we're seeing with the application of Alice is it's enabling schedulers to do their job and look at more options and more opportunities, look at more opportunities on how to build their schedule, different options on how we might construct something. Traditionally, maybe you could look build one or two different construction schedules in a week. In Alice, you can build an alternative construction schedule in 10 minutes. So it's not saying that the solution with Alice is you just take it and then that's it, and you don't check it or verify it. Um, but it's allowing you, if you have 10 opportunities in front of you, you can model all of them in Alice and pick the best one. Whereas manually you might have to make some sort of judgment call on which three you're going to model and then pick the best one of the three. So it's giving you that data to make those decisions. Um, and in terms of the application of AI, the conversation about AI has grown in the last six months. Completely, you know, everybody's talking about it, everyone's using it in different aspects of their life. Um, and I think some of those concerns are valid in terms of the way, the speed at which it could change the way that we do things. But as someone who works in change and has worked in business transformation for a very long time, even before Alice, you know, change can be a good thing. It's scary, but and we need to manage the rate of change. But um, you know, there are a lot of efficiencies that need to be driven in construction.

Darren Evans: 12:46

So I think the one thing is for sure is that AR is going to fundamentally change not just the construction industry, but what we do as humans, I think it will change it significantly. And like with anything that comes, that is a significant shift, there are real benefits and there's also real uh downsides to those same things. So an analogy that I will use is you create the ship and you also create the shipwreck. That doesn't mean to say that you don't enjoy the ship and don't use the ship just because there's a shipwreck, you just get wiser to how to use the ship in the right way so that the amount of shipwrecks that you get reduce over time, right? So, same principle when it comes to AI. AI is created, you'll create someone that's bone idle and lazy because all they'll do is just try and get AI to do everything for them, but then you just reduce that. But I think that you'll also metaphorically put someone on a fast jet or a motorbike or whatever that helps them get from point A to point B so much quicker than what they would do without AI.

Bryony Coombs: 13:53

Yeah.

Darren Evans: 13:53

Yeah. That's the way that I view it. I don't know if you share that sentiment.

Bryony Coombs: 13:58

I think that I think one of the big concerns with AI is you mentioned it earlier. You know, I'm just gonna press a button, it's gonna give me a result, and I'm gonna take that result and I'm gonna trust it and I'm gonna use it.

Darren Evans: 14:10

Yeah, yeah.

Bryony Coombs: 14:11

Working with schedulers and planners, like I see the way that they check and validate, you know, the outputs of Alice, for example. Um, we've built features in the tool to help schedulers check and validate the outputs as quickly as they can in the way that they would do it manually and supporting the manual workflow they would go through, but with technology to enable that. Because we understand that you're gonna put your name against that and you're gonna send that to your client, and that that's important that that is robust and that you trust it. Now, traditionally, when you look at traditional methods, the way that we feel like we trust outputs is by doing it all ourselves, you know. You know, we've seen enough micromanagers in our times to know that you know people know if they've done it and they've seen you do all the steps and they trust the output. But we so inefficient though. It's it's so inefficient, and I think that what we're starting to see is you you need to, you know, you need to have the ways in which you can validate those outputs. I've used, you know, I use AI to write lots of things, but sometimes the references it gives me, you think, okay, well, you know, like I don't know where that came from. And it's some, you know, you click on the link and it's some resource that you would never have got to yourself. And sometimes it's really interesting and insightful stuff, and sometimes it's like, there's a reason why I would never have found this resource, and no way am I quoting this in what I'm about to write. And I think that that's the same in in any in any application. Um, I think there are some benefits in going through some manual steps, especially when you're learning. I think one big concern when we talk about digitization and AI as well is there is, you know, I spent hours with a total station in the rain setting out points on building sites to dig holes, and then being told that I'd done it wrong and having to go out and check it again at five o'clock on a Friday. You know, that is my reference point of how to you know I've learned about the importance of these things sort of through the manual process. And it's how do we make how do we it still encourage people to do the learning that comes from manual calculations or manual pieces of work um whilst then also using technology to enhance us and enable us. And I think once people are skilled and they have that knowledge, using technology to you know accelerate that um is really important. And I think in particular in the construction industry, there's you know we are I think the second least digital industry in globally.

Darren Evans: 16:55

Oh, really? I would have put us at the first. Who's first?

Bryony Coombs: 16:58

Agriculture.

Darren Evans: 16:59

So okay. And I don't know, the the tractors have got sheep.

Bryony Coombs: 17:05

Yeah, exactly.

Darren Evans: 17:07

Um the cows get fed automatically. Automatically, exactly.

Bryony Coombs: 17:12

And we're still digging holes with excavators and lifting out the ground with skips. So I think and I think that that is, you know, if we look at sort of digital applications in construction, I think that that is a really important thing to look at is where are we digitizing? You know, there are lots of parts of construction that we can't digitize, you know, we have to still dig holes in certain ways and a lot of manual work. And there's no surprise that agriculture and construction are there because they are huge manual tasks. You need to, you can't, you know, you can't build a hospital from the comforts of your home office. You know, there's there's certain things that do need to physically be there and and be done and are manual tasks. But how do we look at digitizing how we get to that point and the process as much as we can, and then the sort of back end of that as well. So I think that that's like a really important thing to think about.

Darren Evans: 18:08

Also from that digitization, let me just say that again. Also, in that digitization is how do we take all of the data points and then filter that so that it gives us things that we are aware of that need to change, so that we can make the changes, as well as those things that we're not aware of, yeah, so that we can not just become aware of it, but so that we can move forward in ways that we just haven't even thought of before. Yeah. I'm just wondering with your change management background, yeah, what you have seen and and what you'd offer in terms of to that point.

Bryony Coombs: 18:45

Yeah, I think that that's something I used to think a lot about working in sort of yeah, business transformation was you start by digitizing the process. You identify a task or a series of tasks that people are doing, and the way to get people bought into using tech is to be like, well, you currently do go from A to B manually, so let's do it digitally, and it will be quicker, and you'll have a record. And you know, you have to find a benefit, otherwise, what why would I, the person doing it, learn the new system? So you need to find the benefit of going from A to B. But what I was always thinking about, and this is my brain always being like, How are we solving this problem over here? Is why are we going from A to B? And now we've digitized it. So, an example, I remember digitizing a workflow of forms, and so I took what was a printed out piece of paper and I made it a digital form and built it into a system where we could do that. But once I did that, I was like, well, why are we digitally signing this when you know I'm logged in as me and it the system knows it's me? So does it need my signature on the bottom? It doesn't, because there's a record that it was me that did it, and it's if it's a permit, then we have that record. But for the person who I'm trying to convince that this is, you know, digitization is the way forward, we need it to be as familiar to them as it was, um, you know, in the in the sort of more manual process. So, but then once it's there, you then start to say, well, maybe could this process be changed? Because now we're working digitally. Do we need to fill in all of these boxes? Could we man could we automatically fill in this? And then it's who's receiving it. Are they reading three pages on a digital form? I don't know if they are. Now they're probably putting it into AI and getting a bullet point summary of the form and signing that. So I think it's um understanding once you've digitized a process, whether the process can then be enhanced. But the first step is you know, how do you how do you make that change so that we're all working on the same platform?

Darren Evans: 20:52

And then how do you manage resistance to change? You mentioned before that we're habitual, we we like to find something that works and stick with it until something forces us to change. Yeah. And and I see a lot of I see a lot of good elements in that because what you don't want is the other side of that um extra of as another side of that extreme where you had the oh, what's the name of that submarine that went down? Was it the Discovery? No, the Titan. Yeah. Was it called the Titan?

Bryony Coombs: 21:28

I can't remember what I'm saying.

Darren Evans: 21:29

It wasn't the Titanic, was it? What was it called, Keen? Do you remember the one? Just Google it really quick. Do you do you know the one I'm talking about?

Bryony Coombs: 21:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that just went down and they over um.

Darren Evans: 21:39

So what they did is they they merged, and I'll I'll kind of restate this again because I I want to make this point on the podcast, but they merged um titanium with plastic. And you know that titanium and plastic don't really meet together too well, right? And then they were putting that under stress. Yeah. I think that's a good thing. It was called the Titan, okay, fine. And so and so it is really, really useful to have this aversion to change because it enables you to find what works and we'll just stick with what works because we know it's safe. The other extreme is we want to push all the boundaries and we want to come up with something really, really fun and good and edgy and exciting, yeah. And we want to fail fast and learn quickly, and we'll call it the Titan. Yeah, and we'll it's a submarine, and we're blending two different materials together that we've never blended together before, and then tested it deep in the ocean. It was a complete disaster, right? So, how do we make sure that we don't go to that extreme, but also we don't stay in the other extreme that keeps us stuck building the same way that the ancient Egyptians did. Yeah. Which effectively is what we do, right?

Bryony Coombs: 22:59

Well, I think uh this is very interesting. So I would say in an industry we're extremely brisk-averse, and that comes from the responsibilities that we have for health and safety. So, you know, the key thing in construction is health and safety.

Darren Evans: 23:14

And because lives are at stake.

Bryony Coombs: 23:16

Because lives are at stake, and so a lot of you know, and that is very fair in in those settings, we need evidence that things have been done before and things have been successful before, because yes, you know, there there is risk involved. One thing that I find personally is outside of work, I'm like a massive risk taker. Like I played rugby to have been in hospital more times than my poor parents would care to want me to have been. And when I stopped playing rugby, I was like, I need another sport to become my entire personality, and I moved to Canada to go skiing and you know, put myself in you know, ridiculous situations at the weekend and then come back to work on a Monday, working in the construction industry where we're extremely risk-averse.

Darren Evans: 24:05

I mean, you just going back to the things that you've mentioned about risk, because uh there's calculated risk and then there is whatever class is stupidity. So someone that puts their head in a crocodile's mouth or a lion's mouth is stupid. That's not a that's not a calculated risk, that's just stupidity. Someone that goes um off the beaten track and goes uh skiing, that's gonna be a calculated risk if you've got mechanisms in place to say if something goes wrong, I've got a way to call for help, or I've got someone with me that can that can help and support. If you're doing it on your own, you've never been there before, you don't know the area, yeah. That's what am I calling you stupid now? That's fine. You wouldn't be the first. But but I think that that's not that's not a calculated risk. That's because that's on one person. But if you were to say, right, Darren, this is what you need to do, go and do this out on your own, because I've done and it's fine. I'm not an accomplished skier. So for me to do that, that's just that's just daft.

Bryony Coombs: 25:07

Well, and I think that that like it it your calculation of risk is based on like what you know and what you've experienced, right?

Darren Evans: 25:16

So and what the what the pain point's gonna be then if it if it does go wrong.

Bryony Coombs: 25:20

Yeah, and whether you have the skill set to manage that. So, yeah, for example, there, you know, it's definitely like lines that I've skied that probably people other people would say, well, I would never do that. But that's because I've done, you know, advanced avalanche training. I go out with people that like I trust, I you know, I know how to read the weather, I know how to do all those things and manage all of those risks so I can acknowledge that there is a risk and I know that I have like done everything I can to manage that, whereas somebody else would hadn't and wouldn't put themselves in that situation. Now, if you look at that in if we then go back to kind of the applications of tech in construction, it's exactly the same. If you've used a piece of technology before or digitized something before, and it went well, you think, oh yeah, that feels familiar. And then someone comes with a new piece of technology and you think, oh, yeah, well, that worked well before, and now we'll try that. So I think you need positive experiences and you need to expose yourselves to new ways of working and those sorts of, you know, trying something new to like reassure your nervous system that the next time you do something new, it's you know, it could be a positive experience.

Darren Evans: 26:37

But but but the other thing is well that you mentioned, so just go going back to your skiing situation, if you've done um avalanche training and you know, these other things that you've listed off, I've forgotten I've forgotten exactly what they were now. But it's not just a case of do you know I'm really good at a red run, yeah, so now I'm gonna just take myself off into the outback. Yeah. Because that you would you would never do that with like in clear conscience and with with with a sane mind, yeah, because the risk is just too great because you're not able to take all of those data points in that you're seeing and interpret that in a way for you to keep yourself safe and having fun and this kind of thing that's discovery, right? You want to discover, yeah. But but if you have done advanced avalanche training and you know how to save people's lives and do this, that, and the other on a mountain, you've got all of these data points that are coming in because of the experience that you've got, that someone that hasn't got that experience, they're not gonna be taking those data points in. Exactly. So I would say that you have done a risk assessment, yeah, and I would feel more comfortable with you doing that type of thing and feeling like, do you know what? I think I think he's got it. You're you're fine, you you're good. Yeah. Is it gonna be, is there a chance of it going wrong? Yeah, but I'm sure you can get yourself out of it. Go and have a great time.

Bryony Coombs: 27:56

Yeah. And I think that that like that is very fair. Like I am someone, I think, you know, people have looked at basically since I joined the industry. I have always challenged the way that we do things, and I've always been willing to try something new. Um, but I think that that is is very true. The sort of anxious part of my brain is very, you know, is very much there. And so for me, it's about, you know, doing the research and and getting the knowledge that I need to be able to go and do things that I want to do, whether that's professionally or personally, with the sort of knowing that my anxiety's been managed and I've done the training that I need to and the learning that I need to in in those environments. So I think, yeah, I think you're right that um someone else would look at that and think, oh, that that's super risky, but that's just because they don't know the steps that you've taken to get there or the knowledge that you have or your past experience or whatever it is. So um, yeah, I think that that's that's very true. And I think that if we take that back to, you know, generally, we were talking earlier about why people feel nervous about the growth of AI generally sort of across um society, is it is unknown. We don't know a world where AI is you know a day-to-day feature. So it's an unknown thing. But there are people, you know, in tech companies who have been developing this for years. So there are people who have been using it for a long time, and maybe they're you know in in isolated pockets, but those people do exist, and those areas of the world do exist where you know maybe those sorts of things have become more non-running.

Darren Evans: 29:36

There's a guy that I don't know if you've heard of, but I think you should look him up. He's a guy called Stephen Cotler.

Bryony Coombs: 29:42

Uh no.

Darren Evans: 29:43

No, okay, so he talks about something called flow.

Bryony Coombs: 29:47

Yeah.

Darren Evans: 29:47

And this is and and I totally agree with with his research. So he's a flow state scientist, and he studies how to get into flow and how to get out of flow and what the benefits of flow are. And he's an avid skier as well. But he's um I think he's in his sixties, but he skis the the the same types of runs that you're talking about, and he does it intentionally because he says that in order for him to survive, he needs to be in a state of flow where he is taking all of the things in around him and he's making these micro decisions all the time to keep him alive so that he gets to the end. Because if he doesn't do that and you're not in that state of flow, then what you become then is really risk averse, and eventually you get scared of everything and you get really old really quickly, and you get afraid really, really quickly, and you don't live a fulfilled life. So I think that you would like his research, but that's what I see in the construction industry is there is this thing of I'm not in a state of flow because I'm just in a state of I know that I'm safe, I'm not pushing any boundaries or trying to do anything that just gets me to focus on this one thing. And because of that, I'm not being like a child. I don't mean childish, but like a child where you're discovering things all the time and life is fun and you're progressing and you you don't know what the end's gonna be like, but you're pretty confident that if it does go wrong, you've got enough around you to be able to get out of the situation. Then you make this really amazing discovery, and you're like, quick, everyone, look at this. Yeah. And and then you all together enjoy this new thing that that you've discovered.

Bryony Coombs: 31:30

And it's interesting you say that. So yeah, that absolutely describes like the times that I feel most um alive, you know, alive, like playing rugby, uh, you know, I I would say like skiing definitely, like climbing mountains, whatever it is. But in a you know, in a professional sense, it's you know, you're in a room and people are throwing new ideas. When I worked on site, and it's interesting because when I worked on site, that's probably when I first got early exposure to that. Something would not go to plan. And you you everybody is responding and throwing ideas, and you you know, by the end of the day, you've built what you need to build, everyone's gone home, or everyone's at the pub having a beer. Like as a junior engineer, sometimes I have to buy people beers because they've covered my screw apps, but you know, that's part of learning, that's like learning how to be a junior engineer, I can tell you. Um, but you know, you're you're responding. So in that moment, you you can. Um, but I think like in advanced planning, like taking that step and being like, we're gonna do this a different way or a new way, people are you know, people aren't resistant to change in the industry. But I think that um it yeah, it's easier to hold on to stuff that's familiar. But what I've seen, my experience, is that people are able to get into that state. Um, and you know, we don't want to just use those skills when things, you know, responding to things going not quite to plan and having to recover. Like, how can we use those skills to drive us forward and find those new ideas and new opportunities in advance? Um, and and you know, planning those into the way that we plan to do things.

Darren Evans: 33:12

Exactly right. And and that's what I see in these industries that are moving at a pace that the construction industry isn't moving in. So you mentioned tech, that they are moving in those areas where it's nothing's broken, but let's try and refine it, let's try and make it better.

Bryony Coombs: 33:30

Yeah, I think that that that that is true. How do we how do we kind of get ourselves into the place that we want to be in rather than waiting for it to kind of happen to us and then saying or course correcting and putting ourselves on the right path once we've got into the wrong place. So, yeah.

Darren Evans: 33:46

And so people that listen to this podcast on a regular basis, I'm sure, are sick of hearing me say this in terms of what I do as um uh a leader of a consultancy is try and help people achieve what is possible around sustainability and energy as opposed to help people meet compliance and steer away from the conversation where it says, you know, we're waiting for government to come in and set this standard and set the other standard and the other thing. Well, that to me is like it's not worried about the government standards because the government in any country, there's not a country that I can think of that has got a government that has introduced something into people's lives that have systematically improved someone's life. So travel, uh broadband, communications, you know, all of these are being developed and created, not because a government has said this is a standard we need to meet, but that someone said, I wonder if this is possible. Let's try and do this.

Bryony Coombs: 34:48

And I think when you look at sort of, you know, if you look at like construction tech leaders, for example, you know, Renee, our CEO, he did his PhD at Stanford, and you know, the idea of Alice came off the back of that. You know, now people are with, you know, we're working with new customers. Every month we we're working with new customers. You know, to them, Alice is this new idea, but to Renee, it's something that he's been thinking about for you know over 10 years. So it you need people thinking about it before before people are ready for it, because then the solution is ready for them when they're ready for it. But I would say that one of the um parts of my job that I find super interesting is working with such a broad spectrum of kind of customers. So we work with owners, management consultants, consultancies, construction teams on infrastructure, industrial projects, but I focus a lot on data centers. So I work with a lot of big data center customers. And one thing I find really interesting there is that you know, companies that are building data centers are innovative at their core, because most of them are tech companies. And so working with them at the interface of, you know, how are we using Alice to help us build data centers most efficiently, quicker, you know, in whatever location we're building the next data center? We haven't built them at the scale, at the size that we're building them now. So they're naturally innovative companies interfacing with construction. And then how are we helping that? So I find that a very exciting conversation because they're constantly looking at how we can challenge the way that we build build things, um, you know, whether it's traditional construction methods or the way that we plan it or the way that we collaborate across everybody that's building it. So that to me is a really interesting sort of conversation to be part of at the moment is we've got now got these really innovative tech companies building, you know, using construction to but to build data centers at scale, and how do they how how might that change the way that the industry does things because suddenly they're the client. And if your client is saying we want to build a data center in X days and you think it's X plus 100 days, then you know what are we gonna do and how are we going to level up to that?

Darren Evans: 37:14

So just no, just linking in with your original degree, civil engineering. Yeah. Now really you work for a tech company. Yeah. Um I guess when you first finished university, you probably didn't see yourself in this type of role.

Bryony Coombs: 37:32

No, I I guess I didn't even know that this existed.

Darren Evans: 37:35

There you go. So you could you know. And now I do it. I'm like, okay. So so what advice would you give to your younger self? And what advice would you give to someone that's maybe just finishing at university and is really just thinking, my career is just like this in terms of you know its scope.

Bryony Coombs: 37:57

Yeah.

Darren Evans: 37:58

Because it seems like to me your scope is is is massively uh increased.

Bryony Coombs: 38:02

Yeah. So I would say, you know, I got this advice a lot when I was younger. I just wanted to get to the bit where I was doing the bit that I really enjoyed.

Darren Evans: 38:11

So I just want to just clarify here, just for those people that are listening, you're saying younger, uh, I don't reckon you're above 30. So I wouldn't clash you as old.

Bryony Coombs: 38:21

When when I was in my first few years as a graduate engineer, uh, I definitely wanted I did a lot of roles. So I um I worked in design management, I worked on site, I did a design role, I worked on the bid for high speed too when people were bidding for that. So I did all these like entry-level kind of engineering roles, and I had some amazing mentors at the time. I went every six months to be like, I want to do something new, or I'd be like, I just want to, I don't want to be doing this anymore. I don't think I like this, this isn't for me. And they were very good at saying, just focus on what you're learning. A strong foundation is gonna help you get to where you want to go. And I didn't know where that was. Mainly it was not being told what to do and having creative freedom to think and you know, be the person that I am. Um, so that was like that was where I wanted to go. I didn't know what that that was.

Darren Evans: 39:23

It's the metaphoric off the uh the the defined ski slope and off into the world of this. That's what you wanted to do with your career.

Bryony Coombs: 39:31

Exactly. With some people who also wanted to do it, but yeah, that was what I was aiming before. So, you know, I'd had some great mentors, and I and I think I would say that you know, I became a chartered engineer within sort of four years of of starting in the industry. And I was like, I just want to get this so that I, you know, it's important to me. I did I did a degree in engineering, I wanted to become chartered, and I wanted to have that foundation and understand how the industry works, and getting that experience across a broad brush has been really helpful for me. I would say, in doing all of that, I was always pushing the boundaries. I was always saying, why are we doing it like this? And never satisfied by that's the way we've always done it. And I was always pushing that and um was always willing to tell some senior person my opinion on whatever it was. But I think that getting that foundation and like learning in every role that I have done and taking what I can from it and sometimes doing a role and knowing that it wasn't what I wanted to do forever, but I was learning a lot from it was really important. And then I think out of the back of that is in doing that, you find a lot of people that you resonate with, and it's holding on to those people and seeking their advice. So I've had some great mentors um who have like professionally and like from a technical perspective helped me move into roles. I've had mentors from a personal perspective sort of encouraged me to bring my full self to work, which was some something that was challenging, especially in my younger, younger years. Um, and then I think for me, it was taking opportunities when they presented themselves. So you know, I was head of business transformation um in a big construction company, and the opportunity to move to Alice was for me an opportunity to I'm so passionate about things being efficient, was taking off my, do I need a job which is just about that? And do I want to go and work for a company that is just about that? And I would say that the biggest kind of thing, reference point I have when making career decisions is what's my mission, or what do I want my mission to be? And do I want that to be my day-to-day job, or do I want to work for a company or in a team that is achieving that mission? If you're working in a company or a team that is achieving that mission, maybe sometimes the day-to-day tasks you're doing feel really far removed from that coming on podcasts, no joking. Um, and talking about those things, but that's part of the mission of you know, of building a company together that's going to drive those efficiencies that I'm super passionate about in the industry.

Darren Evans: 42:18

So I'm interested now, because because you kind of mentioned the word uh wacky or the phrase wacky ideas. Yeah. Because I don't think anything's a wacky idea um unless it's obvious it's not going to work. But I can see that there would be resistance to an idea that's new or no one else has thought of because there's a bit of a gap with trust. Yeah. So as an example, um something that we do frequently is we get on aeroplanes and we trust that there is two competent, at least two competent people at the front of the plane that can fly it. Yeah. But we've never met them, we've never spoken to them. Most of the time we don't speak to them, and we just trust that it's all okay, right? But it's not the same when we get on other forms of transport, especially if you're in a car and you get picked up by a taxi driver or an Uber driver, and you look at them and you're like, No, I'm not feeling this one, I'm off. You know, I mean, so so I think it's kind of a um to me, it seems like a bit of a trust gap. And did that trust gap exist because people were prejudging you for whatever whatever reason? And then I'm wondering what happened then to close that trust gap. So someone said to you, right, you've now got full control, full reign to go off and and do what you feel is best.

Bryony Coombs: 43:45

I think that like uh I don't know if you ever thought about it that deeply. Uh no, I I think that I think that's fair. I think that um in I've definitely learned how to communicate the like what I'm seeing, what I'm my ideas in a way that will make other people feel comfortable and and trust from the beginning. I think that that was a big learning curve. I've definitely sat in front of some senior people and given them my opinion. I look back and think, now I would word it differently, you know. Um, so I think like learning to communicate that and I think meeting people where they're at and understanding that. Um I think that you know, driving change in any way um takes a lot of emotional intelligence. You have to understand where people are at. They don't they don't know where they're at, they don't know how they're feeling. You can just see on their face and the way that they're sitting opposite you. So you have to understand that, and then you have to figure out where you want to get, and you have to, you know, figure out, and this is all within five minutes of meeting someone, how you're gonna get them there. So I think you know, learning to communicate uh sort of ideas in a in a clear way, um, focusing on you know how it's gonna help people and stuff like that. I think that that's been um really important. And then yeah, I think you know, getting buy-in from people that have that, you know, level of um trust and and respect within an organization is also um really important. And I think that that's where you know mentors or supporters or you know, people who have kind of got behind things that I've suggested um have been really helpful for me. Um but I think yeah, you know, get getting you kind of use that as well to kind of um help drive new ideas forward.

Darren Evans: 45:43

You didn't say this, but this is what I heard. Advice to younger self, yeah, get really good at communication. Yeah. Because as soon as you're good at communication, the passion that's in your heart and in your mind will be able to be packaged in the right way that that person that you're giving that gift to receives it and opens that package up with a smile on their face and so they can use it and they see the benefit of it as opposed to you just chucking something at them, yeah, wrapped in newspaper. Yeah. But I'm not interested in that, it's rubbish.

Bryony Coombs: 46:18

It's funny you say that when I um was about to graduate, and I would say that I, you know, did well enough in my degree, but there's definitely people who did better. Um I got a gr I got a graduate job offer. Um, and I remember like running into my professor, I was like, I got a job. And he was like, of course you got a job. I was like, okay, but you made me feel like maybe I wasn't gonna get a job. He was like, I just communicated to you that playing rugby wasn't the most important thing that you were here to do. I was like, okay, I understand that. Um, but he was like, of course you've got a job. He's like, you're so good at talking to people. You know, you can communicate like really well. We don't really test for that in these tests, but obviously you've got a job at a construction company, and like you're gonna do well there because of that. So yeah, it's interesting that that you bring that up. And I think over time I've definitely learned learned that. And now, you know, my job all day, every day is talking to customers, um, helping them get value in our software. Um and I do wish that, you know, I definitely sat in rooms and thought I'm not as technical or I don't care enough about calculations. I'm in this room full of people who care so much about that. And I, you know, I I do wish that someone uh would have, you know, I wish that this career path was outlined to me probably younger that, you know, there is a there is an industry and there are parts of construction where you can have technical conversations. You know, I sit and talk about concrete and steel with my customers all the time, and I'm using that knowledge and I'm flexing my engineering muscles, but I'm using as well like my communication skills, my emotional intelligence to help those people and and help get value and and drive value across our industry. So yeah, I do wish that someone had had told me probably at age 22 that there was going to be a job out there where I could just talk about engineering all day, every day.

Darren Evans: 48:24

It's fun, isn't it? That we especially for younger children doing GCSEs, you take the topic English, but it's not really about communicating verbally.

Bryony Coombs: 48:35

Yeah.

Darren Evans: 48:38

Not that I remember.

Bryony Coombs: 48:39

I know. And I didn't like English at school.

Darren Evans: 48:42

I only like maths and science and sport, which you know, that's my entire personality now, so that's why But but you know, you mention you made mention of uh emotional intelligence, you know. Is that maybe they should put that in an English topic somewhere? Emotional intelligence. I mean it's you just got to be it's communication, isn't it?

Bryony Coombs: 48:58

Yeah.

Darren Evans: 48:59

And that's the language that we speak.

Bryony Coombs: 49:00

I think I think that a lot of career advice at school doesn't focus on any of the softer skills. And you know, we talked about earlier like barriers to you know women getting into construction, like things like that are aren't necessarily written down on a j on a job description, but when you meet someone who is emotionally intelligent and can communicate, like they you know they do stand out in in certain rooms. Um, and I think that focusing on the not just the have you got the right degree or have you know been to the right university or whatever it is, I think not foc focusing on other things is how we are going to get you know more people and a more diverse sector of people like into our industry. We need to think about you know what skills we want and what behaviours we want to be displayed in within our industry, um, and not just be about you know who got the highest score in a maths test when they were 15.

Darren Evans: 50:02

So, Brian, it's been great having you on the podcast. I appreciate your passion, your understanding, your wisdom, and also your ski stories. I would say just keep pushing the boundaries and keep doing what you're doing because at least from where I'm sitting, you're making a difference. Um, but I just want to thank you. Thanks for having me on.

Bryony Coombs: 50:24

Thanks for having me.

Darren Evans: 50:25

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