Darren Evans : 0:00

Peter Kelly from ISG.

Peter Kelly: 0:02

I have quite a long title. Actually it's Group Director of Sustainable Operations. You don't go into sustainability because you do it for the money. You do it because you're passionate about the environment. I started actually labouring for a concrete contractor in London just to get money. Really, I loved it. I love the crack, as we call it from my Irish heritage. You come in and someone would have put a nine-inch nail through your boot. I encourage anybody to go and see other cultures. It makes you such a more well-rounded individual. Macalpine has opened my mind to how much of an impact construction has on the environment. I'm probably most known for secularity, so that's my real passion, which is the reuse of materials and keeping materials in use. The marketplace is what we need. You need the Amazon of reused materials. Generally, it's felt that sustainability costs more, and I don't believe that that is true.

Darren Evans : 0:53

Hello and welcome to this episode of Thriving Construction with me, Darren Evans. Today we have with us Peter Kelly from ISG. Peter, it's great to have you with us.

Peter Kelly: 1:05

Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

Darren Evans : 1:07

Good, fantastic. So, Peter, can you just for the listeners and those people that are watching, just briefly cover the job that you do and what it is you like about it?

Peter Kelly: 1:16

So I have quite a long title. Actually it's Group Director of Sustainable Operations, which is a little bit of a mouthful, and that basically means that previously I was responsible for the operational side of our business when it comes to sustainability, so how our projects run, our construction projects run, delivering from our for our clients, but also implementing our ISG, sustainability, esg strategy. But since I've taken over the leadership of the team now I'm I'm encompassing everything, so I have to run the team and go after the budget and do all the other things that not just not just operational side of it. So title hasn't changed, but overall I I'm the sustainability director, for want of a better term.

Darren Evans : 1:56

Um for this is for the whole of isg, the whole of isg globally globally, globally, yeah, fantastic. So just for those people that aren't that familiar with ISG's global reach, where does that go?

Peter Kelly: 2:08

So we have three main markets really. We have our Iberian business, which is obviously Spain and Portugal. We have the German and Swiss business, which are usually paired together, and then we have the Middle East. So Dubai, abu, dhabi, they're the core areas and regions, and then we may do data centers in other parts of Europe as well, but they're the core areas.

Darren Evans : 2:35

Good, and of those areas, which ones are growing the quickest?

Peter Kelly: 2:41

There's a big market forany at the minute for for office fit out, which is our specialism abroad. And then we see uh growth in the spanish um and portugal around data centers and then potentially into the nordics as well in the future. Okay, so those would be the two growth areas. The, the middle east is fairly stable. Sing Singapore relatively not small scale, but small scale by our standards. The UK side, but very stable, really good clients and, yeah, they do a really good job.

Darren Evans : 3:13

Good. What is it you love about your job?

Peter Kelly: 3:15

Do you know what? It always comes back to the people, doesn't it? Sustainability people, I think, are slightly different or can relate to other people that are passionate about their roles. You don't go into sustainability because you do it for the money or you do it for anything else. You do it because you're passionate about the environment and carbon and whatever else. So I think that sets us apart a little bit, and I'm sure there are other passion careers out there, too, that I can't think of, but for sustainability. I think that's that's what makes it for us and my team are very passionate about what they do and they want to make change and they want to see progress, etc. And that's that's a great place to be in when you're leading a team of very passionate, very intelligent um, people that just want to see change, innovate and deal with this climate crisis that we've got.

Darren Evans : 4:08

I think you're quite right With my team. Everybody is passionate about not just the way that we treat the planet, but, I think, also the way that we treat other people. Do you find the same in your team?

Peter Kelly: 4:21

too. 100%. We've done the colours piece, the Jung's. If you fight you find the same in your team. 100, yeah, we've done the um. We call it the colors, um, the yun's uh personality traits, and we all come out on the introverted, come on a green, blue side, which is the very much the caring, making sure everybody's included, make sure there's a voice, everyone's voice is heard, and the majority of us come out that side, not the red, the red uh yellow side. A bit of yellow obviously around the passionate side, but not the red, the red uh yellow. So a bit of yellow obviously around the passionate side, but not so much the red. And you know, the bull in the china shop kind of. We're not really like that and funnily enough, most of the other construction people are, because they're on site there yes they can be a little uh red at times.

Darren Evans : 5:00

We need to get stuff done so how do you find that those, those blend together then, when you've got an organization such the size of isg where you have got those different personality types?

Peter Kelly: 5:13

yeah, I'm sure it's in the same in any organization really. But yeah, we do tend to have more on the red side, but we're a support function. We don't we rarely have people full time on projects and and they would obviously be part of the project team. So I think a lot of it is a bit of quid pro quo. Really. I'll do something for you if you help me out with this, that and the other. So it's a lot of relationship building, a lot of stakeholder engagement that our site teams are my team do with our site teams in order to get what they need achieved and I think it works well in that sense, so that they're not there every day, but when they come in, they have to make those relationships and ask the project teams to do what they need to do.

Darren Evans : 5:51

Good, where was it you started on this journey and how would someone get to the the level that you're at at the moment?

Peter Kelly: 6:00

Oh, so I started when I was probably 19. So that's a long time ago. Now, over 20 years ago, I started actually laboring for a concrete contractor in London, just to get money really.

Darren Evans : 6:15

So when you say laboring, are you talking like moving bricks from point A to point B and mixing cement and those types of things? Yeah, it was a concrete contractor.

Peter Kelly: 6:23

So it's a lot of heavy lifting, a lot of um what we call the form work that needs to be stacked, a lot of um, ply, sheets of ply. I'm not sure if you'd even be allowed to carry one sheet of ply by yourself anymore, but back then you had to concrete yeah, just up on the shoulder yeah, concrete, uh, pouring concrete, sweeping, tidying.

Peter Kelly: 6:44

I used to um make a lot of cubes, which is, uh, the testing cubes for the concrete. Um, because I was a bit younger at the time. My mate's dad worked for a firm and he was working with this and come and work from here. You get treated like a, an adult and you certainly did like there was, there was no, no airs and graces about having a young person on site. You were just treated the same as everyone else. You had to, you had to, you know, grow up quickly. So it was good. I really enjoyed it because I enjoyed the responsibility of being treated like an adult and and that's where I started, really and then uh, and so in that part there did you get lots of practical jokes and things.

Darren Evans : 7:19

Yeah, of course, yeah, I loved it.

Peter Kelly: 7:23

I love the crack, as we call it, from my Irish heritage. Like we used to get. You'd come in and someone would have put a nine-inch nail through your boot. So when you went to put your boot on it would be nailed to the floor and you know you'd have to then.

Darren Evans : 7:37

Oh right, so the other way through your boot. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no. They wouldn't want to hate you, hurt you. They wouldn't want to hurt you.

Peter Kelly: 7:44

But you'd be like trying to get this boot, the big nails stuck in it, into the floor and you'd have to try and get a hammer and yank it off. And then of course you'd have a hole in your boot, which when it rained, wasn't great either. But oh yeah, there was all sorts of mick-taking, but I loved it, it was great. I mean, he, as long as you gave, as good as you got, no one got offended and it was all fantastic. Just part of part of what went on, really, just to make the day go with a bit of crack, really a lot different than Waitrose right.

Peter Kelly: 8:13

Very different, yeah very honestly, couldn't be. I mean, I had a good time at Waitrose.

Darren Evans : 8:18

So you were how old when this happened?

Peter Kelly: 8:20

19.

Darren Evans : 8:20

So from 19, then how did? Where did you go next when you?

Peter Kelly: 8:24

so I went to university um while still working as a laborer.

Peter Kelly: 8:28

Yeah yeah, so they would take me back. Luckily they must have liked me and I think it obviously. My friend's dad working there probably helped, but they would. I would just ring up the one of the foreman and he would say, yeah, go down to this job and I would do summers and anytime I really needed some money. Really at Easter, christmas, I could go and work and they'd say, yeah, go down here and I'd turn up and away. We go again. So, yeah, I loved it really, especially going through university. It was good money. I wasn't paying tax. I didn't earn enough to pay tax, so everything I got paid I kept and that really helped. For example, I used to pay Orange at the time £100 and that would pay for my entire year's worth of mobile phone bills, or £150.

Darren Evans : 9:10

So this is the pre-EE, isn't it yeah?

Peter Kelly: 9:12

exactly so. I used to do things like that because I had the money. I thought, well, what am I going to end up paying for this year? So I'd try and pay in advance and be sensible. So, yeah, I loved it. It was great. I went to university. What did you?

Darren Evans : 9:27

study.

Peter Kelly: 9:28

I did a geography degree, yes, and then I was fortunate enough to get some 50% funding to do a master's degree in environmental science, which I loved Did you do that back to back then?

Darren Evans : 9:39

Yeah, I did it back to back.

Peter Kelly: 9:40

Yeah, yeah, my professor at the time time, who I was doing a lot of work with, was like right, why don't you uh, and you've done well, so we should be able to get you some funding to do the master's great, um. So, yeah, I stayed on uh to do that year and then I stayed on again afterwards for another probably eight months doing some research with him, and I was going to do a phd actually. Um, but um, there was a bit of a scandal at the eu at the time around funding, so his some of his funding got pulled and was that the only reason you didn't do the ph?

Peter Kelly: 10:13

well, I think I I suppose, um, it would have been easy because he would have. I would have just continued in the same vein and he would have had the money and been able to fund it. But when the, the funding dried up, I it gave me a chance to take stock, really, and I decided to go traveling, funnily enough. So, uh, I went back to get jar, uh, the concrete firm earned some money and then went traveling. Where did you go? Oh, I went all over. I went to india, um, nepal, sri lanka, southeast asia and australia. So it was great time in your favorite spot.

Peter Kelly: 10:45

Oh, nepal, nepal, nepal. Yeah, doing the trek. I did a trek in Nepal around Annapurna and it was the best thing I've ever done. I loved it. Yeah, Really really enjoyed it.

Darren Evans : 10:54

On your own or with friends?

Peter Kelly: 10:55

No, luckily, a friend came out and met me and we did it together. I went traveling with a very good friend, but we would dip in and out of each other. We were on the same path but we didn't spend living in each other's pockets. She actually met her husband while we were traveling and an Australian chap, so she lives in Australia now with him. But, yeah, another friend came out because he'd been to Nepal before and we did the trek together. I really enjoyed it. I'd love to go back but you know life gets in the way Kids and, yeah, mortgages and God knows what else.

Peter Kelly: 11:24

One day, one day definitely.

Darren Evans : 11:26

And so what would you say was the big thing that you learned as you were traveling.

Peter Kelly: 11:31

Oh, it just opens your mind completely to other cultures and how other people live and it makes you I personally, I think it makes you a much more well-rounded person. You have to look after yourself, you know, be sensible, all the rest of it, and have fun. And, yeah, I think it just definitely opens your mind to how other people live and the respect you need to have for other cultures and other people. And, yeah, it's always, always, um, been the biggest thing. It's just that eye-opening ability to to go from india to sri lanka even is so different, different cultures, just so different. Like there's no pubs in india. You go to sri lanka and the first thing there is a normal british pub and you're like, wow, I haven't seen one of these for weeks and you can go and actually have a pint and they have sky sports on the telly and different to where you've just been. And then nepal is again, and then Southeast Asia. You know just the difference between the countries that are right next to each other. It was really good.

Darren Evans : 12:30

I've never been to India, but we have someone, um for my company sorry that works in my company that is from India and, uh, she explains the diversity and the difference that is within India. North to south is is really really really different.

Peter Kelly: 12:48

Yeah, I went to, I did the Golden Triangle around Delhi and then went down to the west coast, down to Varkala and along the beaches all along there. So very different, very different environments, a lot of travelling, long train journeys, but again I just loved it. I mean I didn't have anything else to do. So, sitting on a different environments, a lot of traveling, long train journeys, but again I just loved it. I mean I didn't have anything else to do.

Darren Evans : 13:06

So sitting on a so when your children at that age 19, 20 ish, would you encourage them?

Peter Kelly: 13:12

100. Yeah, definitely, yeah, I would encourage anybody. I mean it's it is difficult now with climate change. You do have guilt about flying and other things that you know are contributing. But yeah, if there's a way they could do it more sustainably, maybe by a train or put the experience. Yeah, definitely, oh, 100%. I'd encourage anybody you know to go and see other cultures. It makes you such a more well-rounded individual, I think personally so you've come back then as this well-rounded, cultured individual now yeah, and then you were before?

Darren Evans : 13:45

was it? It was Ireland, wasn't it? You were brought up.

Peter Kelly: 13:47

I wasn't brought up in Ireland. I was brought up in London. My parents are Irish so they came over in the in the 60s, late 60s. But yeah, I came back and again I didn't know what I was doing. So I went back to concrete again and I thought, well, I can't do this for the rest of my life. I think they would have kept me on and trained me up if I wanted to stay, but I was like this is long hours and it's hard work.

Darren Evans : 14:11

When you say hard work, you mean.

Peter Kelly: 14:12

Physically hard work, it's cold. You go out in the winter and it's 7 o'clock half seven, it's cold on site. You have to work hard to warm up, kind of thing. But I thought, without side, like you have to work hard to warm up kind of thing. But, um, I thought, you know, without meaning to sound arrogant, I thought, well, I have half a brain cell, I need to do something a bit more mentally challenging than just physically challenging. So I got a phone call from a recruitment consultant to um go and work for multiplex at wembley stadium and I was like, wow, well, I can't, I can't turn that down, so I don't.

Peter Kelly: 14:44

Somehow I got the job and it was um, slightly different. It was in health and safety, with a little bit of an environment. Not so much environment, there's more health and safety role really, because I've been looking after health and safety and some of the the um paperwork side of it. You know I was, I wasn't just laboring anymore. They got me to do other things because they said, oh well, pete, you know anything. They kind of didn't know what to do. Oh, pete can do that, doing timesheets and dealing with the office and everything there.

Peter Kelly: 15:10

I suppose project managers at the time just didn't want to be dealing with. They wanted to be out on site oh, pete can do that Health and safety and God knows what else they would do permits and all sorts of stuff, meeting the stuff that I had to do for the, for the main contractor at the time, um and yeah, and then I um got this role at wembley stadium for 18 months being a health and safety uh advisor for multiplex, which, uh again, I really enjoyed walking out on that pitch for the first time and seeing the biggest crane in. I think it's either europe or the world at time. The biggest um crawler crane I think probably existed at that time was it sat in the middle of the pitch and I was like, wow, this is a different level again from the kind of smaller, concrete contracting I was doing previously so did you feel that you kind of made it in a way by walking out and seeing that site and that this was the, the national?

Peter Kelly: 15:58

no, I don't know, I don't think. So I probably thought. I probably thought what am I doing here?

Darren Evans : 16:02

What am I getting here?

Peter Kelly: 16:03

Someone's going to find me out, yeah, or do I know enough to be here? So you kind of keep your head down and pick it up as quick as you can and away you go. It was quite stressful. I did enjoy it. The responsibility of kind of being known as the health and safety person I think is tough, you know, because you're not responsible for people's safety, but you are out there trying to make sure that people are working safely, and that was I. Had my own area. I had a couple of basements around the pitch area to look after and you're just walking the sites all day, talking to the operatives and the subcontractors all day. But, yeah, I really loved it.

Peter Kelly: 16:45

I learned a lot, obviously A really good, a very good line manager at the time who taught me a lot and I learned a lot from. And then, of course, multiplex unfortunately didn't have any work, I think post-Wembley. So they basically said, well, we'll see what we can do. Um, you know no promises really. So of course, I thought, what am I going to do now? And I actually had planned to go into construction and project management, go down that route. But, um, I sent out my cv to all the major contractors at the time and so mcalpine came back to me and said well, why don't you come and join our environmental team? Because you've got a geography and environmental science education. But you've got a geography and environmental science education, but you've got construction experience, which we find quite hard to get. You know people that actually know their way around a construction site.

Darren Evans : 17:30

And a significant bit of construction experience as well, right, yeah exactly by then.

Peter Kelly: 17:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And I said, wow, I didn't even know environment existed. You know you could do a job in this. I was like like, wow, this is crazy. So I was like, hell, yeah, I'll go for that, rather than go down the project management route, that I don't have to retrain it, and I thought, yes, I'll, I'll, uh, I'll, go and work in the environmental team at sorrento carpine. There's only three of us at the time, I think, um, one guy out on one of the big projects, myself and my boss, and yeah, we, we, she had just implemented ISO 14001 and it was my job to go out and audit and check and make sure the projects were delivering against it.

Peter Kelly: 18:09

So, yeah, I was all over the country. You know I'd never been to some of the cities that I'd gone to. You know a lot of traveling, a lot of visiting people, loved it, got to meet, love meeting people and got to meet lots, lots of different people, different projects. You got you got that regional, really regional, uh, experience where you know the Welsh and the the Bristolians are, you know, completely different to the Londoners and they're completely different to the Geordies and completely different to the Manchester and they're different to the Scottish and you got to know all the different regions and they're such lovely people you know really really we always made you feel really welcome and all the rest of it.

Darren Evans : 18:48

So, yeah, I enjoyed that too it's interesting you mentioned that now, because the thing that's in my mind is okay, you, you're married. I can see the ring on your finger. I know you've got a couple of kids. You're touring across the country well, back then I didn't what's the nationality of your wife?

Peter Kelly: 19:02

yeah, she's, uh, london irish as well, but at the time I didn't have angela. Then it was, um, I was yeah, much younger then I wasn't married, so I was a. I was able to go and traveled around the country then without without too much, um, yeah, responsibility good, good.

Darren Evans : 19:21

So you finished that you're working from uh soropma carpine.

Peter Kelly: 19:24

This is in london predominantly based in hemel hemstead. Actually, of all places, that's where they're their head up. Well, I'm not sure if they called it the head office, but everyone called it the head office where they were based. So I used to drive up to hemel and then, as I said, I'd be out to bristol or wherever the projects were, to visit the sites and make sure to do some site inspections and audits etc.

Darren Evans : 19:45

So what was it then that kept you in the sustainability area? So you've got lots of different experience within construction. The thing that you wanted to do, it sounds like, was to kind of use your mind and your intellect, at least, if not equal to, but more than your, your physical body yeah, yeah what was it that kept you in the sustainability?

Peter Kelly: 20:07

because there are so many different areas within the construction industry that that you could go into well, I suppose mccalpine's opened my mind to how much of an impact construction has on the environment. Okay, I had to learn the legislation and if anybody does a similar role to me, they'll know there's a lot of different legislation that covers everything from bats to noise to oil storage. You know there's a lot of legislation out there that you have to get your head around and once you realize, wow, the impact of just managing the natural environment alone, at that stage this is long before carbon was important, or circularity or social value or any of that. It was all about environmental control. And you realize, wow, we have a big impact and we have to make sure that we maintain and don't breach legislation and keep the environment safe.

Peter Kelly: 21:00

So, uh, I thought, wow, this is great. Like I'm, you know I'm actually making sure that we yeah well, we're not polluting, we're not causing a nuisance, we're not waste. You know we're not. We're not disposing of waste illegally, etc. And it was great, I enjoyed it. That's where the passion for construction, you know, was always there. But this felt like the best fit for me because it was it aligned a passion for construction because I I think I enjoyed being outside a lot. I wasn't the kind of person I thought that could sit in an office I guess let's go back to the days, yeah but even even in mccalpines you go out to site, it's always a different day.

Peter Kelly: 21:38

You know it wasn't different people as well, exact different people.

Peter Kelly: 21:41

Yeah, I don't think I could have just gone to an office at the age of 19 and just sat there and gone, moved to office to office Like it would have driven me nuts. Like I enjoyed being out. I enjoyed, as you say, meeting people, just the fresh air. That's changed a bit more lately in my career, but certainly back then I enjoyed the variety of different day, different challenge. I remember being sent to the Edinburgh Tattoo. I don't know if you know what that is.

Darren Evans : 22:08

Just for people that may not just explain that.

Peter Kelly: 22:11

It's basically I mean Scottish people probably kill me now, but it's a festival at Edinburgh Castle which is known as the Tattoo. I'm not going to go down the detail because I get it wrong, but basically mcalpines were contracted to build a new, almost like temporary arena that could be taken, put up and taken down every year so the tattoo could be held um tattoos like a, like a concert, yeah, festival, live bands playing spot on and yeah, spot on.

Peter Kelly: 22:40

Yeah, but it's, it's very, it can be quite. Um, there's a lot of traditional piping and that kind of thing. It's all. I think the tattoo itself is all around the Scottish music and culture and all that kind of thing. But we had to take down these ancient monuments I'll never forget it these ancient monuments, they're actual statues outside Edinburgh Castle and take them away and clean them and all the rest and bring them back. And if you damage these like you're in trouble. So I remember watching these being slung and put on the back of wagons going please don't break, please don't break. And then we had to. You know, we had to put some cabling into the castle and of course we had archaeologists there in case we, when we dug the trench, we found anything. And then we had to drill through the edinburgh castle wall, got special permission to drill through the water but this cable. I felt so sorry for this guy with me, an archaeologist, someone from the, from the actual castle. There was like four of us watching this poor bloke trying to call or drill through.

Darren Evans : 23:40

Oh really all eyes on this poor guy, like you know, yeah just I felt so sorry for it. You know, I guess those walls are very thick, right very thick.

Peter Kelly: 23:51

So you said, there's one guy, massive drill head yeah, trying to bore through this hole so we could put a cable through it was all these people.

Darren Evans : 23:58

Did you applaud after you know? Yeah, I think it's more relief.

Peter Kelly: 24:02

Yeah, the floor is yeah, yeah, yeah more relief that it uh, we, we got through and we didn't disturb or find anything of significance that he just called through or anything. That was the main problem. But yeah, that was the kind of responsibility of standing there going well, if this goes wrong, we this could be costly, you know, from a legislative point of view and from a monetary point of view. But yeah, that's the kind of things we got up to back then. It's good.

Darren Evans : 24:27

It's good and how did you end up at isg then from working at mccall pine?

Peter Kelly: 24:31

so I, as I said, I was doing a lot of traveling at the time and I got stuck at aberdeen airport where the easy jack cancelled the flight and left me there and, uh, I had to turn up, I had to find my own hotel so just just for that, I guess easy jet just weren't picking on you and it wasn't like, oh no, it was.

Darren Evans : 24:53

They just cancelled the flight late on.

Peter Kelly: 24:55

Yeah yeah, it was a late night it was the last flight of the evening and they just cancelled it and just we had to go and find our own hotel and fly back and claim it all back. And I flew back to heathrow, my car was at luton and and I just thought right, I've got to get from heathrow to luton.

Peter Kelly: 25:11

I had to go home and then get a train up to luton to pick up the car and then by then I'd had rory, or my wife had had rory, and we were together and I just thought I can't be doing this anymore like my wife's at home. I've got a young child, yeah, so it was all changing McAlpines anyway, um, and it was a good time for me to. Yeah, I've been there nearly eight years, okay, I kind of sat through a recession and I just thought I want to be based in London now. I need to be home every evening, yeah, and I and I applied and and, thankfully, uh, got a job at ISG.

Darren Evans : 25:43

And what was it you started doing at ISG when you first got there? What was the job you applied?

Peter Kelly: 25:47

for. So I applied for a regional sustainability manager I think it was called at the time. So I looked after the construction London, the Ipswich office and the Tunbridge Wells office at the time and I think we had a high-end residential business as well and I think we had a high-end residential business as well. So, yeah, anything that was delivered out of the Ipswich, tunbridge Wells or London offices, plus this high-end resi stuff I was looking after from a sustainability perspective.

Darren Evans : 26:13

Yeah, great, and what is it that you specialize in now in the role that you're in? I know that you've got a team of about nine people. Is that right?

Peter Kelly: 26:21

Yeah, there's probably about seven or eight report to me directly and then there's a bigger team outside that across the business.

Darren Evans : 26:28

But what's your particular area of either expertise or area of interest?

Peter Kelly: 26:35

I suppose I'm probably most known for secularity, so that's my real passion, which is the reuse of materials and keeping materials in use, hopefully in perpetuity. Um, at the minute a lot of those materials are stripped out and sent for downcycling.

Darren Evans : 26:52

I call it really recycling, downcycling, not kept okay in use um, so that's the benefit of those people that aren't that familiar with this concept. Can you just talk through that and what that actually looks like from a practical sense?

Peter Kelly: 27:08

Yeah, so at the minute we have what we call a linear economy. We have a take, make and dispose, so you buy something, you discard it and it all generally end up being recycled or landfilled, and that has horrendous carbon and environmental impacts. So what we're trying to do, not just in construction but in many industries, is to keep what, what is made in use, back in, so what we call a circular economy. So, for example, commonly reused materials in construction are raised access floor panels, where, which we use a lot in offices, carpet tiles are often reused, but we want to expand that to some of the other products that we use a lot of ceiling tiles as a good example and partitioning systems, etc. Etc. So that's where we need to get to. We need to collaborate with our the whole built environment to get that going. But we've had some really good successes. We've taken some lights out of one particular office in central London and we use them in Cambridge.

Darren Evans : 28:13

I was going to ask about lighting, if that extends to lighting and then also if it extends to things like steel and windows and glazing, those types of things as well.

Peter Kelly: 28:23

Steel is probably the most developed in terms of taking steel out of one building and putting it in another. There are some big players in that market now and it's becoming more and more common that a percentage of that steel can be reused elsewhere. The main challenges around what we call the kind of passive materials, which is what I'd call a piece of steel. It doesn't do anything but be a piece of steel. Compared to an active piece of kit, which tends to be something that needs to do something, like a light or an air conditioning unit or whatever it is. They're more challenging because they usually would come with warranties and guarantees and all the rest of it.

Darren Evans : 29:06

They've got the ability to break down and not work anymore Exactly what you're saying.

Peter Kelly: 29:10

A piece of steel is always going to remain right. Yeah, a piece of steel usually has a an extended design life and as long as it's not damaged or touched by fire or anything like that, you usually can reuse a piece of steel. I think there are some time frames around that. I think I can't remember the exact dates, but if there's older than I think 1970 or something then it's a bit more challenging. But more modern steel is very, very, very reusable.

Darren Evans : 29:37

Yeah, right, okay, and so, within this then, do you think that we're ever going to get to a point where someone will design a property based on what is available from other properties that are being dismantled in some way, shape or form?

Peter Kelly: 29:54

I would hope so. I would hope so. There are a lot of architectural practices out there now that want to do this and are doing it to some extent it's a word for that.

Peter Kelly: 30:03

I just made that up no, no, it's just the secular economy, really, or in construction, we, the marketplace is is. What we need is is you need the amazon of reused materials, um, and we get contacted even today, um, for materials that are available for reuse, but it's the supply and demand. You need to find somebody immediately that needs those materials, you know, because then you're into storage, which has time and expense, et cetera.

Darren Evans : 30:30

So I've got a good friend of mine who he runs his own company and he does staging for large events. He'll do concerts, he'll do TV and show. He'll do, like, large stadium awards as well. He's done some things for the World Cup and they've got those stages that are being created specifically for concerts, I think, and then towards the end of that production that's put on, he will then try and find someone that he can put bits of the staging off too. And he said, what frustrates him the most is after everything has been either thrown away or recycled most of it thrown away.

Peter Kelly: 31:08

Someone then comes to him and says, oh, have you got this and he's like I had it just come to me two weeks before you could have had it yeah, yeah, it's very frustrating.

Peter Kelly: 31:18

Yeah, it's that marketplace. As I said, you need to have that marketplace of availability. Um, the donor is the easy bit. I think there's lots of people that can donate materials. Um, at the minute, a lot of the materials that tend to be reused haven't been used at all, so they're like unused materials. What we need to get to is what I call post-consumer materials, where we're taking stuff out and reusing it, but it's that ability to have those materials somewhere that somebody knows they exist. So not only do you need the marketplace, which is preferably some storage, but you also need an online platform or some way of advertising the fact that those materials exist. And then you need someone to be able to go and pick them up or logistically get them delivered to wherever you need them. And then you're into the do they come with the right paperwork and warranties and all that kind of thing? So it is complex and challenging, but I would hope that your scenario will play out in the future.

Darren Evans : 32:14

Because I said that to him. I said why don't you put it on the marketplace somewhere? I don't know how yeah, the marketplace, somewhere to say I am building this, this, these are the materials that I'm using to build it. These are the dimensions. I expect this to be left over afterwards. Who wants it? Who wants it?

Peter Kelly: 32:31

yeah, come and get come and see me after this date between this day and this date maybe someone listening will think that's a good idea yeah, I mean there are platforms out there, um, but what then depends? Because you don't really want members of the public in construction anyway to be coming picking up your materials, we want to. We want to use the, the logistics we've got and move materials either into storage or to other construction sites where you're using a logistics contractor that understands construction.

Darren Evans : 32:58

So yeah, absolutely.

Peter Kelly: 32:59

This is not an alternative to me yeah, yeah, of course, okay, well, you've got 1500 nails.

Peter Kelly: 33:04

Okay, well, I'm going to come and take five yeah, yeah no, absolutely not yeah, but there are platforms out there that will advertising materials for you, but they then you've got to organize the logistics and you've got to go and find you know they're just a platform, they're not. You're not putting you the logistics and you've got to go and find you know they're just a platform, they're not putting you in touch. You have to do that all yourself and go and pick it up and all the rest of it. So we need a better system that works in the construction industry, so that maybe ISG can't use those materials but a Sorrento McAlpine or a Multiplex or another contractor says yes, I do need them next week, or a Macalpine or a Multiplex or another contractor says yes, I do need them next week.

Darren Evans : 33:40

Can you deliver them to me? So what is it that you and your team are doing, or maybe even ISG are doing, that is, being proactive in this space? How are you trying to make this reality come about?

Peter Kelly: 33:53

Well, funnily enough, we're working with the finishes interior sector, which is kind of an industry body, to look at how we can get this off the ground. So a number of contractors, a number of architects, a number of industry bodies have come together to say, ok, we applied for Innovate UK funding. Unfortunately we didn't receive it. So can we self-fund basically a trial to get some materials from each of our sites we're going to concentrate predominantly on ceiling tiles just to pick something to start with. Can we get them into storage and can we get them back out to reuse as quickly as possible? So we've only had two meetings. We need to find some funding because obviously someone will have to manage it, and then we have to pay for some storage. We'll go out to tender for storage and we'll need to find a project manager.

Peter Kelly: 34:40

But I don't think it'll be particularly expensive to get a trial and at least we know if we all put materials in and they sit there for six months and nobody wants them. Well, at least we tried. But the idea will be, if we put some material in stock, then we can try and get it out and we've all got what we call pipelines of work for next year, that we'll know projects coming up, so we'll be able to say almost predict for the trial period where our projects will be between us all and say, okay, when are you going to need ceiling tiles, when are you going to need this, when are you going to need that? And we can try and make sure that you know. And even if, for example, ceiling tiles need to be re-sprayed or whatever it is, we can work with the, the materials manufacturers to to work with us to get this trial off the ground. So fingers crossed for next year so what do you think?

Darren Evans : 35:23

that distributors aren't getting involved in this space?

Peter Kelly: 35:25

I think they will get involved.

Darren Evans : 35:26

Once they know that there's a demand, like anything, they'll probably just say, well, there, there isn't a demand so it's going to be reactive, as opposed to what it sounds like you're saying, is that this is a proactive thing that you're trying to do?

Peter Kelly: 35:38

yeah, well, we're trying to, as anything I I try and do, I try and uh get proof of concept, because if I can show somebody it's been done and they can't tell me it can't be done, so that's what we're. All we're trying to do is prove in an example that a number of contractors can get some materials into storage and back out for reuse, and then if anybody says it can't be done, well, it can be done, we've done it.

Darren Evans : 36:02

And who are these companies that are involved? There's quite a few. Yeah, there's quite a few.

Peter Kelly: 36:06

There's all the big fit-out contractors Overbury ourselves. We've got Perkins Will Architectural Practice, Orms Architectural Practice. We've got the uk green building council.

Darren Evans : 36:21

Yeah, there's, uh, there's a number of people there's probably 15 people on the call, maybe more. Okay, that's fantastic. Yeah, that's really good. It doesn't.

Peter Kelly: 36:26

It doesn't seem very widely known no, because we've only had two meetings early doors, very early doors, yeah we're going to try and get something off the ground next year.

Darren Evans : 36:35

Good, that's good, good. What is your hope, then, for the future?

Peter Kelly: 36:39

I just hope we can keep the climate within two degrees and we can solve this climate crisis that we face and then, subsequent to that, solve the biodiversity crisis that's coming along in that big wave behind the climate crisis. So I think we can do it. I'm really optimistic. Um, if you see, you know, for example, the cost of wind and uh has come down dramatically and solar over a very short space of time. Really, the fact that we don't really use a lot of coal anymore and who would have thought that, however, many years ago? So even from, you know, 1990 levels, we've really, you know, got rid of coal out of our economy. So if we can change that quickly and reduce our emissions by that amount, then I'm hopeful. I think industry needs to play a bigger part. I think everyone can't wait for governments, particularly at the minute.

Darren Evans : 37:38

What is your thought on that, though? Who do you think should lead that?

Peter Kelly: 37:41

Both. Really, you need the government supporting you.

Darren Evans : 37:46

I'm not saying which one do you get rid of, but which one do you think should lead.

Peter Kelly: 37:50

Who do you?

Darren Evans : 37:50

think would have the most impact.

Peter Kelly: 37:52

I think, personally, it's always business. If businesses can lead the way, then others will follow. I think there are businesses out there like ourselves and others that want to make a change and want to reduce our emissions, and you know it's got to be done.

Darren Evans : 38:08

Yeah, I agree.

Peter Kelly: 38:16

I think, when I think about the major shifts and changes that have gone on in the world, it's been the businesses that have done it.

Darren Evans : 38:20

It was henry ford, yeah, that got rid of the horse manure that was on the roads and the need to have those, those elevated doorways, because of all the horse manure that was around they didn't come up with faster horses. He completely shifted it and that wasn't the government that exactly and I think the same with with everything. Yeah, I can't think of anything that the government have implemented that has changed the way that the world works yeah, I think there are things they have done.

Peter Kelly: 38:47

I mean the, the, the subsidies for um, offshore wind and things like that I think have really helped.

Darren Evans : 38:55

So I think that's in my mind at least that support yeah, as opposed to implementation you could argue that the um, that the computer was supported by the government because they were trying to find out how to solution to crack the code for the new boats right that's the kind of origins of the computer. But that wasn't.

Peter Kelly: 39:14

That wasn't really the government that did that it kind of supported it, I think that's that's where I see it in these government anyways, that they they can support their support and I agreed, and a fertilizer, maybe.

Darren Evans : 39:24

That's yeah, yeah, I agree, I agree, definitely good well, shall we go and talk about myths and try and destroy them? Let's do why not?

Peter Kelly: 39:35

yeah, the demolition zone why not bring it on?

Darren Evans : 39:40

so, peter, this is your myth that you have created. So this kind of to me, for those that are listening, is kind of a bit of a a tower with a a little bit of a lower level on, uh, on the left hand side it's kind of like a an l shape, reversed, reversed L shape. I would say Very colourful, very red, very red. What does that represent?

Peter Kelly: 40:03

In terms of the myth.

Darren Evans : 40:05

Yes.

Peter Kelly: 40:06

My personal take on this is that generally, it's felt that sustainability costs more. Okay, and I don't believe that that is true. Okay, what?

Darren Evans : 40:17

leads you to that belief, what leads you to say actually, sustainability does not in and of itself cost more what makes me think that that's true or not true yeah, what makes? What makes you believe that sustainability doesn't need to cost more or doesn't cost more?

Peter Kelly: 40:34

well. I suppose my career has shown that the problem with the problem where it costs more is if it's done too late, particularly in construction. If you design in sustainability as you would to meet planning conditions or any other traditional facet of construction, then it doesn't cost anymore because you've designed it in. It's part of the design that somebody can cost and they shouldn't therefore add on extra cost because it's there in front of them, it's designed in. So we finished a job last year for the Cambridge Institute of Sustainability Leadership, which is their new home, which we've won several awards for. Thankfully, it's a really great low-carbon project, as you'd expect for a client like that.

Peter Kelly: 41:22

But the ethos of that project was that we're going to do a very deep green retrofit but it's not going to cost any more than a standard fit-out. And that was the ethos from the very beginning, long before even we came along as the contractor to deliver it, and what that meant is that we drove out any extra cost that was perceived in our supply chain and in isg. We were questioned all the time about what is that number for that does that you do not need to put in some money for that, that this is not a risk. This is designed in it's part of the. You can see it in the drawings. You can see see it in the 3D model. It's there. You don't need to design. This is not going to go wrong. This is all science behind it, etc. Etc. So we really worked hard with our supply chain and with the client to design out risk and that meant that we brought that project in well within the realms of what a standard retrofit would cost or a standard fit out.

Darren Evans : 42:20

So it seems like to me, then, what you're saying is that the reason that sustainability does, in reality, cost more is not because of sustainability itself. It's because it's poorly planned and done at the last minute.

Peter Kelly: 42:32

Spot on. Yeah, they'll come usually at Ariba, stage four, and say, panic, yeah, well, or you, you know, what can we do from a contracting perspective? And you're like, well, there's lots we can do, but it's piecemeal compared to if you got us in at stage zero or one and we'd said, right, this is what we would do to lower your body carbon, because we understand a lot about materials. So we can say, well, you get the same specification, but this is a lower body carbon. We can do a lot about materials. So we can say, well, you get the same specification, but this is a lower body carbon.

Peter Kelly: 42:59

We can do a lot about healthy materials or low-impact materials that don't have VOCs or formaldehyde or whatever it is. But we could introduce all of that. Circularity, reuse of materials. All of that can be designed in at the beginning, but if you try and retrofit that in in, it does cost more because you've got to redesign and you've got to swap out materials and all the rest of it so what about for those people that would say, well, I'd love to approach you, but the design hasn't been decided yet or there's a number of things up in the air?

Darren Evans : 43:31

I know that's one of the objections that I get when I mention that to uh, to clients look, bring us in early. We're, we're desperate to start early because we know that we can add a huge amount of value. What would your comment be on the?

Peter Kelly: 43:44

well, at least we would be part of the process then, wouldn't we? Well, as the design develops and as those ideas, you know you don't. You don't need a full project management team sat on your shoulder at stage one. You need, you know, probably two or three people a bit of cost advice, a bit of planning advice and and some sustainability advice. You know that's we're not asking for. You know, a team, a football team worth of people.

Peter Kelly: 44:08

Here we're just saying, if we're part of the process, we can help evolve into that design that you want to see, and it should be more efficient and it should be buildable and it should be in line with the costs that are out there in the market. You know that's, that's the. That's what we can do. We can. We've got the supply chain so we can give you the cost that's going to be real. Um, we've got the, the ability to understand construction in terms of buildability. We understand the sustainability aspirations and aspects of construction and if your building is occupied, we can work around that and design for that from the beginning. We can plan for that fantastic, peter.

Darren Evans : 44:49

You can now destroy that myth looking forward to this good stuff. Well, I am sure someone is going to watch this and a light bulb is going to come on and they're just going to take a new approach based on what you've said. That's, that's my hope at least.

Peter Kelly: 45:07

Well, that would be great, yeah, and if anybody does, then yeah, please get in touch.

Darren Evans : 45:11

That'd be great, great peter, it's been great having you here. Thanks for coming along. I'm just wondering, before we go, if I can just ask you one probably tricky question. You're ready, go for it strapped in. What is the one thing that you want people to understand in in more detail or with more clarity now that will make the biggest difference in the construction industry wow, that is a. That is a tricky question one thing, but one thing do you want people to understand with more clarity now?

Peter Kelly: 45:46

that is going to make the biggest difference in the construction industry um, I look, I think it's got to be around carbon for now. I mean, I think circularity contributes to carbon, but if people can understand the impact that they can have on the construction process to reduce carbon whether that's being more energy efficient or material efficient or moving to electric vehicle rather than diesel or petrol, that kind of thing they can understand their own carbon impact of what they do and their business does as part of construction, then I think that would help us help a major contractor, help our clients, to understand our impact and do something about it.

Darren Evans : 46:28

Fantastic Peter, thank you.

Peter Kelly: 46:30

Thank you for having me. It's been great. Thank you.

Darren Evans : 46:47

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