Rachel Bell: 0:00

We spend a lot of time at work and so making those moments something you actually enjoy and at the end of it, they're projects that we really sort of stand back from and think, yeah, I've done that, that's one of mine.

Darren Evans: 0:12

so Hello and welcome to the Thriving Construction Podcast. Today we have Rachel with us from Stride to Glown. Rachel, great to have you here.

Rachel Bell: 0:24

And to be here, yeah, really excited.

Darren Evans: 0:26

Good, not many people will know who you are, what you've done and what you're about, but can you just give us a brief introduction and rundown of what it is you do for Stride?

Rachel Bell: 0:36

Absolutely yeah. So, yeah, thank you for the invite to be part of your podcast today. So I'm Rachel Bell. I'm a director for Stride to Glown I'm actually director of partnerships Stride to Glown. So we are architects headquartered in Bristol, but we have nine studios across the country and in all, there's about 330 of us, which do cross both architecture, master planning, building surveying, graphic design, landscape, and I'm sure there's probably loads of other things that I'm just missing. But, yes, a great team and a practice that I've been part of for the last 24 years.

Darren Evans: 1:13

Awesome, rachel, you're also a podcaster, aren't you?

Rachel Bell: 1:15

I am indeed.

Darren Evans: 1:16

Why are you here then?

Rachel Bell: 1:17

To try someone else's out and find out all the, all the interesting and obviously visual to go alongside the audio. So yeah, it's great to just see how someone else does it. Tell me about your podcast.

Rachel Bell: 1:28

So the podcast I host is called Stand Tall with Rachel Bell. It's a podcast that we started during lockdown, so actually during my year as National Chair for Women and Property. It's called Stand Tall with Rachel Bell. That was my hashtag whilst I was the regional chair for women and property in the southwest. It kind of comes from someone really kind of taking the mickey out of my height. I'm only four foot eleven, maybe pushing five foot, and they used to just, yeah, make fun of my height compared to everyone else also to make fun of.

Darren Evans: 2:01

I mean, they say, don't they that great things come in small? Packages and it's the, it's the, it's the small, quiet ones that you need to watch out for.

Rachel Bell: 2:10

So no, the. The stand tool element which, as I say, came through in my regional chair year for women in property, was about stepping outside of your comfort zone, trying things that scare you, maybe just saying yes to something and then thinking what do I do? So, yeah, it's about taking that moment, and the podcast, especially, is for talking to people who are doing exactly that. So stepping outside of their comfort zone, doing something extraordinary in the construction industry.

Darren Evans: 2:39

How long have you had the podcast for?

Rachel Bell: 2:40

So, yeah, three years, we are just finishing season three. Lots of really interesting people from across the industry. So, yeah, please check it out if people are listening and dialing into this.

Darren Evans: 2:51

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. So give us a. Give us a bit of gossip on the behind the scenes stuff. Who has been, or what has been, your most surprising moment from running your podcast?

Rachel Bell: 3:05

I've really enjoyed it, I think, personally, just essentially pushing myself out of my comfort zone, doing something that you're not trained to do talking to someone in a very different way, having a structure to that, but also just seeing where that kind of goes and the discussions that evolve through that hour or so that you're recording and, I think, being able to reach out to people that maybe ordinarily you wouldn't necessarily have a door open or have the ability to talk to. So it's given us a lot of opportunities to reach out to clients, other collaborators and really just deep dive into kind of their world and where they're going.

Darren Evans: 3:48

And that's been surprising to you.

Rachel Bell: 3:50

Yeah, it's been really good.

Darren Evans: 3:52

What's been the most challenging element for you? You talk about standing tall, reaching out of your comfort zone. What has been the biggest challenge of all that for you?

Rachel Bell: 4:00

Probably the momentum and keeping that going. It's an intensive process with all the editing and and momentum, just kind of with guests and things, but I think ordinarily it's been a great. It's been a great process, something that we've all learned from, from the team that are working with me on it, and we've all enjoyed it and we are looking forward to seeing where it goes next exciting.

Darren Evans: 4:24

What if there has been, or if you're able to divulge this information? But who or what has been your favourite guest?

Rachel Bell: 4:31

I mean all my guests have been my favourite guests, I think. The variety. To be honest, there are some exceptions within that that aren't particularly linked to the construction industry, but I've met through various different networking events or through other avenues. I suppose one of my highlights is the Malawi episode, so I took a sound recorder on my trip last year to Malawi.

Darren Evans: 4:55

So I'm just going to jump in here really quick. So you're an international podcaster, not just a UK podcaster. You've actually done the podcast in Malawi. Yeah, clearly, outside of the UK borders, absolutely okay. Just want to emphasize that, yeah yeah.

Rachel Bell: 5:10

So we took a very small sound recorder and we captured sounds from around the school that we work with in Malawi, up on a mountain, so sat around the campfire listening to some of the porters talking about the myths and everything around the mountain, to actually just interviewing the business women that we were working with, plus then various different interviews with the women that were there from the UK and America with me.

Rachel Bell: 5:38

So check out that episode because that is quite extraordinary. The others I mean certainly thinking of people that come to mind Ben Channon, the mindful architect, talking about health and wellbeing in the industry. Alice Williams from Schneider Electrics, again slightly kind of different, but as another female leader in the industry, and just sort of seeing where she's going, how she's got to where she's got to. So then, like Chris Brown, who was at Igloo when we recorded that, a fellow B Corp business, and just kind of seeing how he got the business to where it is and the direction that they're going in. So lots of variety. And another one that really stands out is Neil Pinder, who is quite an elaborate educator but again trying to kind of raise the awareness for a wider diversity in the construction industry and amazing initiatives that he is rolling out internationally, and so, yeah, there's lots of different ways of just kind of, I suppose, upskilling and seeing what else is happening in the world.

Darren Evans: 6:43

I love that. Yes, I am really intrigued about Malawi. Yeah, why Malawi? And what were you doing over there?

Rachel Bell: 6:53

Yeah, this was a standstill moment, for sure. So I mentioned Women in Property and I was at a Women in Property event and saw Kate Webb speaking about the trip that she'd just come back with another female engineer, katie Toms.

Darren Evans: 7:09

So who is Kate Webb and what does Kate?

Rachel Bell: 7:10

do. Kate Webb is the business owner behind Orbis Africa, so they are the business that we travel with. They were set up to help raise awareness around the tourism industry in Malawi, so essentially these trips are supporting industry in Malawi, so it's about trade and not just handing out aid to a country which is probably the third poorest in the world. And so it was. It was supporting tourism, so it was encouraging people to go and explore and travel around the the country.

Darren Evans: 7:44

People would have heard of Malawi, but what is actually there to go and see?

Rachel Bell: 7:47

Incredible environment, so it's called the warm heart of Africa. So everyone is extremely welcoming If you're into geology incredible landscapes to go and study. If you're into hiking, incredible mountains to go and hike the cities, themselves really interesting to then the remote villages that you can go and visit as well. So we go out as a group of. This is a women's trip, but there are various different trips that Orbis will organise, as well as family holidays and things to go and explore.

Rachel Bell: 8:20

We are out there to skill share businesswomen to go and hike the mountain Malangi Mountain and then go and work with a secondary school called Rainbow Hope Secondary School and we spend a day with the students, again Skillshareing. This is much about educating ourselves about their culture and their lifestyle and what they can do and achieve, as well as kind of sharing what we and our career paths and what we do. We also get thrashed at netball with the students. So I must say I'm heading back very shortly and I haven't been practising my netball skills. Probably that's the one thing I'm worried about. So, yeah, we go and do incredible things and see incredible places and there's a little bit of a reward at the end where we stay on an island on Lake Malawi and that's the kind of moment that you can kind of take in the sort of seven, eight days beforehand. It's quite high pressured and quite intense. Yes, it's about absorbing and going and experiencing what is an incredible country which very few people get to get to see.

Darren Evans: 9:29

So what would you say that Malawi women have in abundance? That maybe struggles with Western women.

Rachel Bell: 9:36

Oh, I'm not sure that maybe it struggles. I think the fact is they are incredibly entrepreneurial communities out there, incredibly entrepreneurial communities out there that I think the cultural aspects which are obviously, you know, still supported, but it's about maybe challenging some of those where girls essentially get married very young, have children very young, miss out on their education, and it's about supporting those women who are now a little older, looking after family but also wanting to earn money for their family or support their family. The death rate over there is still very young, and so a number of these families are affected by parents dying and leaving families without much support.

Darren Evans: 10:20

So what is the age that people would pass away?

Rachel Bell: 10:24

I'm yeah, not entirely sure, but it's. It's extremely young compared to what we would expect here because of health care or poor nutrition?

Darren Evans: 10:31

is it because of conditions?

Rachel Bell: 10:33

a bit of everything and aids and various other aspects and that, but things are improving. As with everything, education is improving. So rainbow hope that we work with there is a sponsorship that I've actually supported one of the students there for the last five years and I'm really looking forward to going back and seeing her. So they have to pay for their secondary school education. So the secondary school might have children from the age of 12 all the way up to 22, 25. They go for a year and then because of the payments, they don't necessarily have that consistency. So the sponsorship programme that we're involved in helps keep that consistent education pattern so that they can go for four years and really make the most of that.

Rachel Bell: 11:20

In the first year that I was there they had their first student go into university and it's Orbis that have been really supporting that school and helping to bring people to help Skillshare and raise different kind of awarenesses. But also Katie Toms, who I mentioned had been there. They built a classroom which was especially for students who were studying science and technology and maths, so a stem classroom with some very basic kind of lab facilities, and last year when we went over we took money to actually buy some equipment whilst we were in Malawi, so test tubes and bunsen burners and and those types of things which just helped to, yeah, bring that to life in the school and and educate the students in in the way that we would perhaps expect.

Darren Evans: 12:07

That's wonderful and that's all through. Women in Property.

Rachel Bell: 12:10

Well, that was originally through the link through Women in Property, so the event but this has been a bit of a side hustle, I call it so. Although I bring very much, you know the community that I have through the construction industry. So the trip that I'm about to lead is with eight women from the property and construction industry and that is really just kind of an amazing network of like-minded women which challenge each other. The actual trip is called a partnership challenge, so this is about challenging our own understanding, challenging each other. It is quite a challenging trip because you're in each other's pockets for 10 days with strangers that you haven't met before, but at the same time you come away with absolutely incredible friendships from people that you've been pushed to your limit in almost some of those situations.

Darren Evans: 13:02

Would you say the most valuable thing that you have gained from these trips to Malawi that you've done? If you say the most valuable thing that you have gained from these trips to Malawi that you've done, one thing yeah, probably more self self-awareness and probably learning about my strengths and weaknesses.

Rachel Bell: 13:14

As I say, there are challenging circumstances and and behaviors of other people which you know. You learn a lot about yourself, about how you deal with those situations. So it's been, yeah, a really good enabler for me to kind of learn, maybe, how I need to adapt in certain circumstances. And, yeah, for me personally, it's just it's found a purpose for me essentially when you talk about challenging circumstances.

Darren Evans: 13:40

Can you give me kind of a specific circumstance what, what, what does that actually look like?

Rachel Bell: 13:46

I mean there's a number, I mean certainly when people are sick in the group and just how you deal with still a group mountain and maybe within a very short time people will turn around to you and are saying we haven't been briefed about this or I wasn't expecting this, and you're thinking we've got eight hours of hiking ahead of us. Yeah, we've talked about this and so you know there's, there's plans there where we have, you know, a plan a, b, c, d and e to know right, okay, if that doesn't work, then we can go to this. But as a leader you have to kind of remain level-headed, calm, all in, take it all in your stride and, yeah, be there for everyone. Essentially, you know people will either look to kind of having loads of detail or actually just kind of wing it and you have to kind of gauge from the group how far you kind of or how much information you of wing it. And you have to kind of gauge from the group how far you kind of or how much information you share.

Rachel Bell: 14:48

You know, when you're going through border checkpoints or when something doesn't quite go to plan and you're kind of thinking, yeah, none of this was part of the plan, but we're just going with it, and I think anyone who's traveled to Africa there is a lot of that. You just have to live the moment and and see, you know we've had a flight change because you know something's happened on the runway in the city that we were going to land in and you just kind of think, yeah, they're digging up the runway right, so we've got to, we've got to fly somewhere else and then try and work out what we're going to do. So it's probably very insignificant things, but you know they can mount up, and you do. I suppose if you deal with it in a particularly aggressive way or a loud way or something, then you just know within the group that can quite easily change the dynamics. So you have to try and keep it kind of even.

Darren Evans: 15:38

That's good, and I think that being aware of yourself and how you're acting or reacting to that moment yeah is is really important because it has the ability, as you say, to make an impact on the dynamic of that group absolutely yeah and that plays well for you in your role. When you're in the office, it's stride to ground yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Rachel Bell: 16:01

I mean that leadership role you know as a, as a director of a business, you know to kind of bring those skills and being able to deal with situations. You can kind of just take so much from really you know, any life experience, but especially kind of ones that you know do challenge you so, as a director of partnerships at strider clown, if I'm 10 years old, what does that actually mean?

Darren Evans: 16:38

what do you do? What do I do? Because in in my 10 year old brain, directors sit in a in an office and they've got a big table, they've got a lovely view outside and and they're just busy, but I don't know what they're busy doing yeah but to go and see them you need to knock on their door, and sometimes the person might have their feet up on the desk. But apart from that, my 10 year old brain can't. Can't understand what a director does, let alone a director of partnerships yes, so.

Rachel Bell: 17:05

So I'm an architect by background, um, and I trained as a an architect, but probably about 10, 12 years ago I saw that there was an opportunity and sort of put my hand up and said I'm willing to give this a go, and that was looking into more of the business development, the marketing side of the business. So it's through that route that I've essentially created and worked on a role that really makes me thrive and I love it. It's been challenging on the basis that I've moved away from everything that I trained to do as an architect, but I'm in a business that I love and working with a team that then works across marketing, business development, the events associated with that and the graphics side. So essentially, my day-to-day is managing a team who look after marketing events, bids and graphics. It's a team of 11 people, so I'm supporting each of their roles. Doing that.

Rachel Bell: 18:06

Some days it might be much more focused around a particular event and we're looking at, say, a guest list for the event. It might be that I'm out meeting different businesses and talking to them about opportunities or a project that's coming up or a framework about how work's coming into the business, connecting them into other people within Stride to Glown and saying, right, you need to speak to so-and-so, or did you know? Oh, we've bid that recently, we've got this experience to then being able to say, look at the website and okay, this case study on this project it's just finishing. Let's have a look at how we make the most of you know wanting maybe to work in that area of, of that particular sector.

Rachel Bell: 18:48

More so, I'd say the attraction for me is every day is different. It's dealing with lots and lots of different people. For me, it's much more about the external contacts and hence my title director of partnerships is about the businesses that we work with and how we want to work together and how we want to collaborate together. I know that's a buzzword that everyone tends to use, but it is very much about the people, the people in the industry, and finding those people that you really get on with. You know we spend a lot of time at work and so making those moments something you actually enjoy and, at the end of it, that they're projects that we really sort of stand back from and think, yeah, I've done that, that's one of mine.

Darren Evans: 19:35

So so if I'm a young person and I get on well with people and I can manage the collision of someone that wants things in fine detail and someone else that really doesn't worry about the detail, that much is more focused on the experience, if I can manage those two areas and I really love to support and help people then aspiring to have a similar job to you would would fit well with me yeah, absolutely.

Rachel Bell: 20:05

I mean I think the message from from sort of my journey into that is, you know of a of a very technically minded architect loving kind of getting into door schedules and things.

Rachel Bell: 20:17

But yeah, fundamentally it's about the people and being able to speak to people, get, get stuff done. So you know it's returning phone calls but prioritising in very, very different ways from day to day and, yeah, looking at the details. So it is getting into, you know, the minute detail of you know if you're sat at an event, who's round the table, what are you trying to talk to them about or what opportunities can you pick up from that and, importantly, how do you follow up? It's not coming back and then just getting caught up in the next thing. So it's that consistency and being able to kind of follow things through. So you look at who's in our team and they've come from a marketing background or an events background but they're connected within the construction industry and I know that some of them in the team had never really thought about the construction industry but they've now found this is a great opportunity to to sort of springboard into many other things.

Darren Evans: 21:19

So what golden bit of advice would you give to somebody that is coming to the end of their a levels or maybe has recently done their GCSEs, but they're struggling to really understand how much an architect, or maybe a director of partnerships within an architectural firm, really gets paid or what that actually means when they're figuring out what their life could look like? So I'm talking the place that they're going to live, the type of vehicle that they have, holidays that they go on, family, all these other bits and pieces. What can someone expect to aspire to from a wage bracket in that role?

Rachel Bell: 21:58

Well I say a great perception. It's not a good perception, but the perception of many is that architecture is well paid and that it's a very lucrative job to get into. I think that is quite misleading. It's a big challenge in the industry and I think even more so now with the living wage, cost of living et cetera, challenges there for students. I think the big generator for someone considering studying architecture or looking at architecture as a career would be considering the route that they want to get into it.

Rachel Bell: 22:33

I was one very lucky before kind of tuition fees came in, but I still came out with a huge amount of debt.

Rachel Bell: 22:39

You know it's a it's an intensive course where you're doing lots of model making and purchasing lots of materials and wanting the near, you know, newest kind of equipment in things. Now, with tuition fees for a course that could be six years in length, part one and part two coming out with like 80 000 pounds worth of debt, I think that really has to be a serious consideration. Where do you live, etc. Are you still working, living with parents or family? Are you trying to get away from all of that and living away from home but then have that added expense? So I think, starting from there to then, you know a job which actually is OK paid. But I would say, if you compare it and I often do when I speak in schools to you know a doctor, someone who is practising medicine after their time in university, which is fairly similar, five, six years, and they would be paid a lot more, double, three times as much as you know a newly qualified architect or a graduate coming into that.

Darren Evans: 23:42

So how much would that architect be looking to kind of get paid in terms of wage bracket when they come out?

Rachel Bell: 23:48

Yeah, I mean there's various different great surveys and salary benchmarking that you can get from the RIBA, so the Royal Institute of British Architects, I think from the recent surveys in 2023, I think they were putting like an average newly graduate, so after the part two, so not qualified, but in between that part two and part three, around 23 24 000 and that will vary from london waiting to kind of other regions and again that might be slightly higher depending on the size of the firm and and things like that. I think a newly qualified architect is around 25,000, 26,000. Again, that can vary as well from region to region and I know that there are a number of businesses across the industry which are sort of challenging the fee levels, so that we can obviously address that kind of benchmarking of the salary.

Darren Evans: 24:50

Because that salary is really low, isn't it Compared to? Maybe? You mentioned a GP, but the thing that came to my mind straight away was a bus driver.

Rachel Bell: 24:59

Yeah.

Darren Evans: 24:59

I think a bus driver is on 26, 27, maybe 28.

Rachel Bell: 25:02

Yeah, you see all the signs on the buses. Yeah, yeah.

Darren Evans: 25:04

And so I studied at university for five years, and I'm on less than a bus driver.

Rachel Bell: 25:10

Yeah.

Darren Evans: 25:11

Why is it that someone would want to go into architecture?

Rachel Bell: 25:15

Because it's an amazing industry that can be very innovative, loads of opportunities. I think you know I was talking to a colleague the other day there's probably over 150 different types of jobs in the industry. So if you are interested in marketing or if you're interested in kind of more engineering type degree, there are just loads and loads of different ways you can get into it and I'd say the pay varies quite considerably around that. I was on the tube actually traveling today and there was a sign up for a university advertising a degree in AI, so artificial intelligence. You've got to think, oh, that's really exciting, isn't it? So if you had your time again, would you look at that? There are so many jobs that are now opening up that who knows what's going to happen in the next four or five years.

Darren Evans: 26:04

And you're connecting AI with architecture here. Yes, yeah, yeah.

Rachel Bell: 26:07

I mean, we're all finding our way with that. There's no right answer. But you know, in the time that I've been an architect, I learned on the drawing board, you know, with pen and ink and scratching out the ink with a scalpel. To now you was a Revit champion. I was beta testing Revit and you know that's come a huge amount now where we're sharing models with other consultants and essentially you know the contractors with iPads on sites being able to see the 3D models. So you know, gone are the days with pencils and you know hard copies of drawings on site. That's moved in the last 20 years. So where's it going to be in the next 20 years?

Darren Evans: 26:55

And so for those people listening that have never heard of Revit before, what is Revit?

Rachel Bell: 26:59

So Revit is an Autodesk product, so Autodesk is an industry standard. Who produce software for architects and Revit is one of their, their packages. So it's a drawing package that essentially you can model every nut and bolt in a building, but essentially, yeah, you're drawing a door, a window, a wall in 3d and constructing the building as if you were building it on site so if someone likes minecraft, they would love Revit.

Darren Evans: 27:31

Absolutely yeah, and they're good at it too, you're right, and we do.

Rachel Bell: 27:34

We find the students that are coming in on work experience pick it up like instantly, if not. You know, some are actually learning it in particular school, college courses, because there may be more of engineering, design, engineering, construction and programmes, so they're actually being taught it and they're the students that kind of instantly pick that up.

Rachel Bell: 27:55

So it sounds like someone would want to be an architect because they're looking for impact, they're looking for variety, and that the door that they need to go through to access various rooms that they want to be in is that five-year course architectural school and, in practice, yeah to be able to specialize in other areas yeah, and there are various different other routes that are now opening up more and more so apprenticeship routes, which you know enables them to have a job, have a few days in practice, as well as then at college or university someone's got that, then does that mean that that 80 000 pound debt is going to be reduced, if not gone, if they're doing an apprenticeship?

Rachel Bell: 28:37

yes it, and they will hopefully find a practice that will support them in helping support tuition fees and various other things. So I think that for me is a great opportunity, for people depend and it it kind of helps support a wider, diverse workforce for those that maybe can't support that kind of debt. And you know things that even I did back in the day. I didn't do a levels so I did a BTEC in construction. I loved that. It was something that I was really interested in, just seeing the variety in that course, knowing that I kind of wanted to perhaps pursue architecture or do something in construction. But I didn't want the reliance on one exam at the end of it. I wanted that practical learning all the way through and and, yeah, thrived on that. So it was kind of looking and challenging it. You know people were feeding back at that point saying you will not get into architecture if you do this B-Tech and it's like, well, I want to do that, that's the way that I want to do it and I made it work.

Rachel Bell: 29:41

So it seems like you're quite fixed in your mind of what good looks like and, irrespective of the naysayers, you're willing to continue on and make things happen yeah, kind of challenge, challenge back on a number of things and but yes, I think you want the best for everyone and you kind of think, yeah, if you feel a gut feeling that it's right, go with it where do you think that comes from?

Darren Evans: 30:04

from you?

Rachel Bell: 30:05

it's a good question. I don't know stubbornness maybe, but also having high standards and and feeling that you've brought up, being brought up to kind of respect a right way of doing things, but expecting a good way and a high standard of of delivering something that people are happy, satisfied and and, yeah, would, would thrive in.

Darren Evans: 30:28

So you're talking about being brought up with certain standards. What would you say that the values of your parents were, and how that shows up in you today?

Rachel Bell: 30:37

They were hardworking and even now in their retirement they're doing multiple different things and not ever sitting still. So I think that's it. You know, both my parents were working, so they were both college lecturers for a time. They were actually both made redundant and then my dad went back to his training as an electrician and my mum, who had been trained as essentially office manager, secretarial skills, had various different roles, supporting local councils in that. So no matter what was thrown at them, they kind of found a different way to to make it work and definitely sort of picking up on, you know, their determination and and and just how they approach things. You know it's certainly rubbed off.

Rachel Bell: 31:23

So stubbornness probably, and that's actually showing in their, in their, in their retirement. They're not not willing to give in and keep going.

Darren Evans: 31:31

So and and is how is that working for them?

Rachel Bell: 31:34

it's really good yeah yeah they're very active and and, yeah, their usual sort of sunday morning walk and things. They they, but they're, you know, they're used to a routine and and keeping keeping that going, which is, I think, healthy, so that's good.

Darren Evans: 31:49

So talk to me about life for you now and where you see things in the future, I guess professionally as well as personally as well. You've been an architect and now you're a director still an architect, yes, but your. Your focus is less on architectural matters and more probably commercial matters. It sounds like from what you're saying, but what does the future look like for you?

Rachel Bell: 32:16

I I hate that question when people ask me well, where do you see yourself in five years?

Darren Evans: 32:20

I never said five years. I said where do you see yourself?

Rachel Bell: 32:22

it's looking in the future so, is it the?

Darren Evans: 32:25

is it? What element of that do you not like? Is it the, the forward looking part, or is it the?

Rachel Bell: 32:30

it just kind of feels a little bit trite no, no, it's not, it's not not liking it, it's just that you.

Rachel Bell: 32:36

I find it challenging to look that far ahead. I suppose, okay, I live for the moment, okay, I think it's something that I've learned over the past number of years when perhaps things haven't quite gone the way that you kind of imagined and you kind of. Then you think, oh, actually, let's just see where it goes, see what happens. Yes, I'm a director of a practice, but I've got lots of other interests and I'm really interested just to see where they go, especially things like the Malawi trip. I'm a women in property director, so supporting that network of incredible women across the industry these are all things that I do in my spare time, as well as trying to get more women to play golf. I'm just recruiting another probably 30 women into kind of lessons and various things to try and get more women in the industry to turn up at corporate golf days. Are you a keen golfer? I am a keen golfer.

Darren Evans: 33:34

Handicap.

Rachel Bell: 33:34

About 30.

Rachel Bell: 33:36

So it came down to about 28.

Rachel Bell: 33:37

So trying to bring that down, but again, it's just supporting the feedback I quite often get on that is that people are afraid or don't know where to start or the impression they get of a golf club is this and they don't feel welcome, and so over the last 10 years I've had probably about 80 women through various different lessons try it out and it's been incredible just seeing the friendships and and just people coming away from that thinking this is amazing and just getting getting them to give it a go and and and get out onto the course.

Rachel Bell: 34:14

So that, as I say, is another interest that I have and connecting people, the. The overall riding message is friendships and partnerships and connecting people together and and seeing where that goes. So there are a number of those aspects which, in my day job at Stride to Glow are, you know, the businesses that we really want to align with, where we see opportunities and having those real kind of meaningful conversations, which helps in the good and the bad times, and it's where we take that next and and how we kind of move that forward with certain businesses.

Darren Evans: 34:49

In asking you about the future. It seemed as though there has been disappointment or a struggle that's in the past, and I picked that up when you said that you live for the moment and see where things go, and I'm wondering if you may be able to share what that might be, if I've picked up correctly on that.

Rachel Bell: 35:08

Yeah, I think there's a very sort of a traditional viewpoint in many people in terms of you know a female having children and you know getting married, having children, et cetera, and having a career, maybe alongside that.

Rachel Bell: 35:24

That didn't happen for myself and my husband. We had tried to have a family and weren't successful, and I think that kind of takes a lot, lot of time, energy, headspace, when suddenly something that you've kind of maybe thought would happen and you kind of think is the well, certainly the feedback you get from people is you know, right, and people even now assume that I have children. When that doesn't happen, it's kind of where, where do you go? And you do look to the future and people think about you know your old age and if you don't have a family, what, what do you do and how is that going to look and what's the structure there? So there are things like that that you do sort of maybe change your viewpoint. There are things like that that you do sort of maybe change your viewpoint and hence, yeah, living for the moment and just thinking something might happen tomorrow and it might actually change everything, or actually something might not happen and maybe that isn't so bad.

Darren Evans: 36:21

So how was? How was that period of time for you and your husband as a, as a couple? And the reason I'm asking is because I'm convinced that there are many people out there that suffer in silence around that very topic that you're mentioning, and I think that what makes a very difficult, extremely difficult situation even harder is the suffering in silence.

Rachel Bell: 36:49

Yeah.

Darren Evans: 36:50

And believing that you are the only one that's experiencing this.

Rachel Bell: 36:55

Yeah, and at the time when we were going through it it was very much so we didn't confide in any close friends. All of our close friends were having children. It was kind of the expected thing and, yeah, it was very, very difficult. So you know, a number of days you either personally take as holiday or try and kind of work, work around appointments and various things, kind of things where you hope that if someone is going through or has gone through it, that they can find some comfort in talking to someone I very much had. I had a friend who had been in a similar situation and so I had some contacts that I was able to reach out to, but ordinarily we didn't speak to many people. But now it is something that I am very kind of open with, because I know how difficult it was, both with balancing the determination of trying to have a career be the best that you can be, but knowing that, yeah, things weren't quite going to how you expected, or really really having tough days and trying to do it all. I mean the comment that I quite often get now is well, how do you fit all of this in? And a lot of that is because I don't have children. But actually, at the same time, it's because I love what I do and I get a buzz from that and I think that purpose of of being me is about helping support many people and that is whether it's in golf or in Malawi or actually in day-to-day life of just being able to understand, yeah, how you can perhaps go through IVF and still, you know, come into work and do that. So I've been very much supporting an IVF policy in work and raising kind of awareness around how you do support people who are going through that process.

Rachel Bell: 39:06

But yeah, there are days where it still hurts, it still is challenging. But yeah, there are days where it still hurts, it still is challenging. You know, down to the you know baby announcements in the office, that assumption that people think that you have a family. It's quite often the default question when you're networking. People say, oh, you know how are the kids? Or you know, are you school holidays? You know how's things going, those types of things.

Rachel Bell: 39:29

So I now have a confidence where I'm quite happy to open up and say, actually I don't have children. It's quite interesting the reaction you get from people then, because that's people expect oh yeah, yeah, you know, you can talk about your kids, but I'm very open with actually saying no, you know we couldn't have kids and actually you know we have chickens, and you know you have your kind of way of responding. It takes a lot to get to that point, though, and it's not easy, and I think being able to reach out to people to talk about that, and I hope that, yeah, people are willing to kind of come and either ask how, how I coped with that, and and and also just experiences, and and how you find, how you find your kind of your purpose again, when you know that life isn't quite going to be what you expected it feels like you're downplaying it slightly when you say it takes a lot to get to that point.

Darren Evans: 40:23

It seems as though you've skipped years of experience. I use the word experience because I don't want to put words in your, in your mouth or in your mind. How would you describe that in a way that would help somebody at that earlier stage than where you are at the moment on that journey, have hope for the future, have a confidence in themselves? Not just for the female in the partnership, but also for the male in the partnership? Because I think, in and around fertility, often women can feel that it's their fault, their problem, but, but it's, but it's not that. And and often men can feel that they can't ask questions or that they haven't got a place and no one really is having a conversation with other men when they're going through the, the that journey as well, to say, hey, can I, can I sit down with you and share that? So what? What thoughts come to mind?

Rachel Bell: 41:26

it is a long process and you know, this for us has been probably over 10, 12 years of. I mean, my husband and I have been together since we were 21. And so you know we had a great partnership. We have a great partnership and that has been the strength, to be honest, the strength together, but it challenged us really greatly. But it challenged us really greatly. It challenged us because we had to really talk to each other, knowing that perhaps this wasn't going to work.

Rachel Bell: 41:59

What did that mean and what does it mean to you as a couple, to you know, your, your life ahead, and so I mean the, the, the one learning and the recommendation I, when I talk to people who are going through this, is to make use and really use the counsellors that are offered. For me, it was the opportunity to really share how I was feeling, as well as how my husband was feeling, to talk very openly about how we felt, did a part of our newsletter out to friends to let them know what we had been through because, as I say, we hadn't spoken to many, many people about that, and but it felt that we had actually reached that decision on ourselves, that that was as far as we were going to take what we were going through and to move on. And many, many people have different kind of, I suppose, commitments financially and just kind of time scales that they want to kind of work to. And I think that's an individual, very much an individual decision. But knowing when do you say enough? And certainly when you're going through IVF, the cost implications of that can be huge.

Rachel Bell: 43:10

And so we knew, when the time was right, that that was, we'd given it our all and it was time to time to have a life beyond that, because you put everything on hold, because you don't know what's going to happen, um, and I think that was part of it. It was it's realizing, then, that you, you still have a lot to give you, you are still who you are, you're not a lesser person and actually you can do a lot more um. So you know, by just having time, energy, evenings, great holidays, you can have as much, if not more, even though you haven't got the child or the kind of the family that you expected. So I think it's looking beyond that and, as I say, that takes. It's very different for very many people, but it takes. It takes time to kind of reach that point when you feel as though we've we've done everything we can. It's it's time to time to live for the moment, and it's time to live for the moment and see what's next.

Darren Evans: 44:14

What advice would you give to a manager or a director of somebody who is going through an extreme fertility challenge?

Rachel Bell: 44:25

I think you've got to be very mindful that some people won't want to talk about it, but I think you've just got to offer to be there and be as flexible as possible, depending on the medication, the appointments that people have to do so and just the emotion for men and women, the emotion that you go through. It's an absolute roller coaster.

Darren Evans: 44:46

And so just giving people space and time being there just so that you can support them and, yeah, they will come and talk to you and hopefully reach out as and when they need to so it seems like you had a reinvention of, or a rediscovery, should I say of, who you are, what your marriage is, what impact you've got, how that fits around, something greater than just your paid work. How did that feel when that, when that happened?

Rachel Bell: 45:15

I think, yeah, it's. It's finding other interests and finding you know different, different ways to kind of spend your time and and hence all the things that I get involved in and I mean the amazing community that I've got through Women in Property has definitely kind of been a solid kind of fall back and also support when I've needed it. They are the friends and the people that you reach out to when you kind of think, oh, can I just run this past you, can I check in? And you know we do that for both ways, when people want to reach back out and check in to me as well.

Rachel Bell: 45:52

Yeah it was kind of an opportunity to just say, right, what now?

Darren Evans: 45:58

Talk to me about women in property. What's the purpose of it? I mean, you could say, well, that's a really daft question because it's about women in property, but I'm sure it's more than that.

Rachel Bell: 46:06

Yeah, so it's for women in property and construction. It's an organisation which has been going since 1987. People think it's a very new thing around the whole diversity and inclusion drive. But yes, an industry network for women in the property and construction industry. So it's national. There are regions across the whole of the UK. It's a membership organization but they run events for both members and non-members. So those non-member events are open to both men and women. It's about encouraging as many male allies to come and get involved as well. It's an organisation which supports networking, learning and skills, as well as things like the student awards program. So that's supporting second year students who are studying, and, I think, in property and construction, as well as mentoring for the members and outreach to schools, so importantly, going to primary schools, secondary schools, colleges to talk about careers in property and construction. I've been a member for 18 years and I certainly wouldn't be sat here as a director of Stride to Glam without that network.

Darren Evans: 47:19

Why do you say that?

Rachel Bell: 47:20

Because it's provided such a platform, both for me professionally and personally. So both, as I said, those friendships, but also opportunities, really opening up many, many doors with both those contacts and the network that I've been able to use and build through the network.

Darren Evans: 47:38

What doors have opened for you specifically because of that?

Rachel Bell: 47:41

I think probably just the grown confidence that maybe I've got, through doing some of the events that they've done, a lot of kind of soft skills that you might not ordinarily pick up through. You know your day job, so those types of things but also contacts and ability to reach out to people in the network and say, oh, you know, I've heard, I've heard of your business or you know, we want to kind of get to know you more and and just picking up the phone or dropping someone a note on LinkedIn or something like that. So, personally, it was definitely the opportunity to be the regional chair in the Southwest in 2017. And that sprung into the national chair role in 2021, into 2022. And now, as I say, the director role alongside a really great board, and now, as I say, the director role alongside a really great board, so the Women in Property Limited board to help steer and support the national chair.

Darren Evans: 48:38

Now, and what's the future for the organisation Women in Property? What is it that you're focusing on now? I guess it's that future question again.

Rachel Bell: 48:47

Yeah, I mean, the question that we're quite often asked is well, why do you need women in property? I think if you ask graduates at university, they're seeing like a 50-50 balance, both male and female. They're kind of saying, well, what's the point? You know, we've got it really really easy. It's that retention across the seniority in the industry and ensuring that working practices are supported but also challenged, and the network is there to help raise and support people through the industry and through their careers.

Rachel Bell: 49:23

At the moment we've got various different surveys out. There's one called the Building Balance Survey which is honing into more about child care and and parents working in the industry and what support they're looking for or have, and also just addressing things at political level. So we engage with the all-party parliamentary group which is looking at, you know, the next type of initiatives or where the challenges are. So it's feeding into research and and that. But at regional level there's loads of amazing things that they're doing, from sort of networks getting outside to seminars on passive house or kind of the next sustainability drive, carbon, etc.

Darren Evans: 50:09

So yeah, there's loads and loads of things that the network support on I love the thing that you speak about network there, because that really just helps resilience. Yeah, helps to have people feel and believe that they can overcome or take on or improve because of the network and the people that are around them. So, yeah, to me, I've been to a women in property event years ago and the speaker that was there was was inspirational, a great, great guy, um who, who spoke there and that was through um, through sharon, yeah yeah, yeah, um who's um?

Darren Evans: 50:44

I know she's very, very active in absolutely that group, isn't?

Rachel Bell: 50:47

yeah, yeah yeah, well, yes, and, and you know we go back a long way. So, yeah, that's it. It's it's about the friendships that you can create and people that I've been in contact with for 18 years me and it's amazing that that can grow and grow and grow. And, yeah, that's now for me very much a national, if not international, kind of network. That is incredible.

Darren Evans: 51:24

I think we're now at the stage where we can go into the demolition zone.

Rachel Bell: 51:28

Oh God, right, are you ready?

Darren Evans: 51:29

Yep, let's do it. We are now back and we are in the demolition zone. Rachel has created these two beautiful circles with towers around the side, so I'm thinking stonehenge here, times two interesting but I'm sure that's not what you are thinking. What does this represent? So this has been troubling me a little bit this is the place for you to get your problems out.

Rachel Bell: 52:00

Yeah so, um, I'm aware that two of your guests previously uh, demolished one of the myths that I was very much kind of coming with and I thought, oh, I can't do that again.

Rachel Bell: 52:12

So their myth was around how you get into the industry and education and challenging kind of the stereotype of the roots into the industry. So I thought, fine, okay, for me, diversity is obviously a very hot topic, and so this has two meanings actually, one being diversity of thought, being kind of the same as everyone, so that's the representatives of the blocks all the same, versus a huge amount of diversity around what could be seen as a meeting table, but also a and this is the other viewpoint maybe an event table. So a and this is the other viewpoint maybe an event table, or so the other side of this for me is diversity of types of events that people go and network at. So it was trying to kind of pick up on maybe those two, two kind of myths which might be about, yeah, construction, industry not being very diverse, but also that events has to be like a black tie, do networking and drinking. So for a lot of my part in the industry, I challenge that back and say get outdoors, go for a walk.

Rachel Bell: 53:25

Have a coffee, you can ditch the alcohol ditch the alcohol, um, and do something healthy, but find someone like-minded, or actually someone very, very different from you, and see what they think.

Darren Evans: 53:36

So, yeah, I love that. That is fantastic, and so the reason that that myth needs to be busted is is what? What's the reason that that myth needs to be busted? What's the advantage of mixing with people that don't think like you? Uh, of going to different events that aren't alcohol and and black tie based? Yeah, what's the benefit of that?

Rachel Bell: 53:59

because it's good for business a slightly different take on how you might run a business or approach an event or do something. Diversity of thought and having a different viewpoint is actually generally a good thing. So, yeah, look beyond maybe, how you would think and see what someone else thinks awesome I think you can now destroy the myth excellent. So my plan was um to bring a golf club um, but I couldn't bring that on the train, so I have a little mini scale ruler perfect with a sweep of the ruler.

Darren Evans: 54:35

There we go all the blocks, the blocks, all the blocks fall to the floor. I love that. Rachel has been great having you here. I really do appreciate your insight, your openness and your vulnerability. Especially, I'm confident that there are people that will really benefit from the things that you have shared today. Great, and I just want to thank you for that. I'd encourage people as well to tune into your podcast, stand Tall.

Rachel Bell: 55:02

Yep With Rachel Bell Yep.

Darren Evans: 55:04

And you said that you've got a new episode that's due out soon, but I guess that, since we are now talking in the past, I'm sure it's already out by now.

Rachel Bell: 55:13

Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, but yes, definitely. You can either link through that on the Stride to Glown website or it's on all podcast platforms, so or reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm very happy to kind of connect with people.

Darren Evans: 55:27

As I've listened to you speak and as I've been thinking, I'm wondering what that is that you can say or you can leave as a parting gift for those people that are listening thus far. What one thing would you give as a piece of advice or as an invitation that you think will make all the difference to the listener, as well as those people that they're connected with?

Rachel Bell: 55:53

There's probably loads of things that I'd want to kind of pass on. I think maybe it varies depending on someone's seniority or position in a business. Maybe for those more senior people, think about how they might reach out and mentor someone, give back to kind of someone younger, mentor someone, give back to kind of someone younger Again, someone maybe younger in a business. It might be useful to perhaps offer to mentor someone senior, do some of that reverse mentoring. And I think my big thing for people is perhaps not worry that they're not doing enough, but actually sometimes by saying no means that you can do many, many more things. So yeah, and the big thing for me, stand tall, go for something that's out of your comfort zone and just give it a go.

Darren Evans: 56:42

Rachel, you've given so many nuggets there. I love that. I really do love that. Again. Thank you for coming on the podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you here and hopefully we'll get you on again in the future.

Darren Evans: 56:56

Thanks very much for having me I'd like you to do me a favor, and I don't mean here just to ask you to subscribe and to follow, but what I'd really like you to do is to share this podcast with as many people as you think would benefit from it. I would love to maintain the quality of people that are joining me on this podcast, and so, in order for me to do that, I really need your help. It could be somebody that's looking to get into an industry, but they're not quite sure what industry they want to get into. Maybe it's a teenager that is just finishing their GCSEs or starting A-levels. Maybe it's a teenager that is just finishing their GCSEs or starting A-levels. Maybe it's somebody that's doing an English degree at university but is not quite sure what they want to do with that degree. So I invite you just to share this podcast with as many people that you know so that we can grow this community, so that we can maintain the quality, engaging conversations that we're having together. Thank you for your help.