Nkechi: 0:00

So I've kind of gone down this route because of when I had one of my children I couldn't get back into work. For some reason it took a very long time, almost close to two years no work. Everyone knew obviously I had a child and for some reason I don't know where they got that myth that you know children, you can't work, and so when was this Just date this.

Nkechi: 0:18

This was to 2017. I normally go to work by six months or even less, because I've got a good family network. Most of my siblings, my mom, my dad, they're all here in the UK, so it's easy to go back to work.

Darren Evans : 0:30

They help out.

Nkechi: 0:31

And so I've got that network. But it was a big struggle. So when I got towards like 2019, I was like, oh no, nothing's happening. 2018, I was like, ok, I love construction, love construction. You know, I've always wanted to do it since the age of eight. And so I thought to myself, okay, what I'll do is I'll add knowledge to the industry. And so I started searching around what kind of kind of research I should do, and I've always had a social background, social desire, because my mind was like, okay, I'm going to build free schools, free hospitals in Africa. That was my dream to do that. And so I thought, okay, then let me just. I saw like a PhD that was around CSR in supply chain. I thought, okay, this is quite good. Now it's understanding the connections from you know, from design, and what does that mean? Moving through? So, yeah, and then obviously, I started in April 2019, you know, generally understanding supply chain. You know whether it's workforce, materials, equipment. Those are the kind of three areas that I was doing, starting my research into, and then I was.

Nkechi: 1:32

I wasn't too sure where I was going to go into but, like I said, the hit of the Black Lives Matter was coming through and I was talking to my supervisor about it. Oh my gosh, there's so much happening now. Why is there suddenly now more people in certain kind of jobs and things had to go on. They were like, okay, explore that, then explore it. So okay, then let me explore it. And started to see, okay, like they're this down, falling into the workforce and see what that looks like, and started to see that a lot of people are getting jobs. But it wasn't as inclusive yesterday making sure you're in but keeping you and keeping to stay, because I had those conversations with people who got these jobs at that period. As soon as they got in, they wanted to leave. They felt isolated, they weren't included in meetings, things kind of like almost like they're kind of making them to fail. That's the kind of experience that I was getting from those at that time.

Darren Evans : 2:23

So there's a number of things that you've covered there and I'd like to kind of delve into them a little bit deeper. Perfect, if that's okay. Okay, so just starting back, you had a child. Doesn't sound like it was your first child. Okay, so your child comes along 2017. You want to get back into work yeah you struggled to get back into work. What did that look like?

Nkechi: 2:43

because two years is a long time to try and look to get into a specific line of work now it made me understand why women don't have children quite early on in their career, and obviously with my coach, while we pressure was on have children early. So yes, had my children and that was it.

Darren Evans : 3:00

So I've I understood now that before the my children, before that I would hide, I wouldn't tell them I had kids, I'll work one year and they wouldn't know I have children, nothing okay and then after the year, then I will say, oh, I have children so when you say you wouldn't tell them that you had children, would you on about your work colleagues like nobody would know? No, nobody would know.

Nkechi: 3:20

And the reason that you did that was was it's because of the perception and think that, okay, maybe I'm not competent in my work because I experienced the discrimination in that or I was passed over for certain kind of work and so forth. And I still feel like I had quite a lucky architectural experience because I was doing like the office space education. So I did my degree and then I worked for one year really good workplace. I did a year out in like humanitarian architectural work around Uganda, kenya, india, when traveled around, did all that came back and I couldn't go back into university. I started it but my mom felt ill. So and because I'm the first, first born and then first of the second generation, so I was a migrant here it meant I had to just work and so the office-based education meant that I could do a lot more with my career than anyone who was just doing the degree and then start working as in part two degree, so it required them to take me to meetings I wouldn't normally go to go to site.

Nkechi: 4:22

I wouldn't normally go to. These were fantastic experiences. When we got to having children, that's when I now saw OK, now there's a big difference, now I get it. So that's when I said, ok, let me just keep. My family was there to support, so I didn't have to say much. Let me just prove to them I can do my work. And then, after like a year, my probation's done, probation's done. One weekend, how was your weekend? Oh yeah, it's my family, my children. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was then. But by this time now I could trust that they would not see. Then I'll probably thinking how are you able to do all this?

Darren Evans : 4:52

with a family and stuff like that, and then so you didn't feel that they were going to prejudge you, because they had evidence to say that you were capable yes, that's correct did any of your colleagues come up to you and say you know I can understand why you did that. I think I need to consider doing that myself.

Nkechi: 5:07

No, no, no, no, I didn't. Actually One of the workplaces I did work at, disappointingly, I had a woman who just kind of made my life kind of hard, very hard.

Darren Evans : 5:18

How so how would she make it?

Nkechi: 5:21

hard, Extra work, just kind of. You know, it was just unnecessary extra. Or give me work deadline like two, three days before, where you know how long you had this on your desk. Does that make sense? And to prove a point, I don't know what it was, it was just so I thought, okay, I can keep up with this, Even if I have to stay later. My family was there to support, so I did that enough. She's not having a child and during her maternity she came to visit us and she said sorry okay, interesting yeah, she said I'm really really sorry, like because now she's experiencing.

Nkechi: 5:53

So how did you do it? How were you? She's now trying to navigate motherhood and obviously her career in architecture and I was like no, it's okay, I get it. I understand why women don't have children such a young age and stuff, so I get it.

Darren Evans : 6:08

So, in that, what would your advice or plea be to women that don't have children yet, or maybe even don't plan on having children at all, but are within the workplace?

Nkechi: 6:18

What I've found now is that my experience now in the workplace is I don't know what advice I could give, but don't I find now that the male workers or male colleagues would use a female like I'll work because I'm a consultant, so I come into many offices or companies and come out, so when I come in they tend to. I find that they use a someone to kind of navigate or direct what I'm going to be doing or not, and I personally set boundaries now, purposely intention for them to start thinking about that. Ok, your wife's not here, so your wife's at home looking after you and most of these men they will talk about their children and I just don't, I just don't do it, I just don't bring it up because I'm like, no, we're here to work, because I haven't got that safe space to talk about my family. Yes, I have children, I'll mention it.

Nkechi: 7:10

And the days I'm off, you see, I'm off because they're sick or something to do with school things, that's it and stuff. But I Like maybe I'm not doing what they want me to do and they don't want to be seen as being discriminated against me. They use a woman too, and sometimes what I have to do is sit down with them and say look, do you want to have children one day? I have to kind of have a one-to-one with them. So just be mindful of what you will allow or what you're enforcing onto myself, because the time will turn when you have your children and they're going to say well, they're going to remember that you were like this towards me so they expect to do that towards you.

Nkechi: 7:48

So just be mindful of this, that I'm just setting these boundaries so they know if I'm saying I'm going to come in between nine, maybe I say I give you time zones, I'm going to come in just flexi. It makes sense, it's for reason. So you can now say that has my work changed no, okay, my Okay. My work hasn't changed, right? No, you're happy with my work? Yes, okay, that should be. The main thing we're here for is that I'm doing my job correctly, and so, yeah, I like that.

Darren Evans : 8:12

So you got to the point then where you found a job Two years later you found a role that was through support.

Nkechi: 8:27

That was was literally on the day that I secured my PhD. I was at the train station what was it? Paddington Station and I got a call through from an agent to say look, we can catch you there with a job for you. However, you have to be freelance. You have to be on business. That's how my business started. So it was like I had it in my mind I'll have my business one day, but not right now. And it was like look, there's a potential opportunity for you, but you have to be self-employed.

Darren Evans : 8:41

I said, okay, let me just try this out, let's see what this is like so you didn't actually get hired as an employee no the way that you got a job was you set up your own company yeah, in one week and someone came along and said I've got a revenue stream for you for that company yes, so yeah, that's how it was.

Nkechi: 8:59

I got a phone call in the day and they were like look, we've got an interview right in a hot in 10 minutes.

Darren Evans : 9:04

So you had 10 minutes to prepare for an interview.

Nkechi: 9:06

Yes, so I had to find a little corner in the station, put my earphones on and like just video call, literally like this, ask me questions, and they were like yeah, you've got the job. I'm like are you sure? Because?

Darren Evans : 9:16

that's what you said. Yeah, are you sure? Because of the hurdle?

Nkechi: 9:19

yes, I was like because of you know, you have to overprove yourself, the hurdles you have to go through to secure something and obviously, two years of not having anything.

Darren Evans : 9:29

So talk to me about the supply chain. It seems as though that is your passion. Was that what you studied when you were at university?

Nkechi: 9:35

Yes, so that's the PhD focus. It's around corporate social responsibility in the supply chain, so getting corporate to the end of supply chain supply chain.

Darren Evans : 9:45

Okay, yeah, so getting corporate sources to the end of supply chain? So understand. So can you break that down? What is the supply chain and what relevance does corporate social responsibility have within the supply chain?

Nkechi: 9:54

okay. So when it comes to construction, it's all about the resources that we used for our, for us to build. So, in regards to, again, links to our workforces that we use, it's regarding our materials and where it comes from, from raw material manufacturing right up to on-site, and then, obviously, the equipments that we use as well. So those are the three areas. That has been my main focus when it comes to general supply chain in construction and then when it comes to corporate social responsibility. It's a focus on, you know, corporate responsibility, social responsibility. How responsible are they socially in these areas? When it comes to workforce, when it comes to sourcing materials, when it comes to the equipment, all of that, you name it. That's the kind of focus area there.

Darren Evans : 10:37

I've experienced corporate social responsibility when I was younger, for a particular job that I wanted to do, and it felt like the only reason they were talking to me was because I was in the minority bracket. How can we have people not feel like the only reason we're having a conversation is because you're within the minority bracket and I need to tick that box?

Nkechi: 10:56

I don't know if we cannot not feel that way because we're still in that tick box phase in most companies. I find that a lot of the projects it is a tick box exercise. They're just trying to make sure they're getting their numbers. I've seen it on site. You know, even myself I'm representing, you know, the minority. I had one project I won't name it, but I was the minority of women and, yeah, ethnic minority and the client was putting pressure on the contractor to make changes and they're like, oh, it's hard, it's difficult, any excuse, you name it, they had it. And they were like at the point where the client was because there was pressure, media pressure around this particular project, and they were like, if you don't basically, in paraphrasing, if you don't make these changes, you're going to be pulled off the project.

Nkechi: 11:42

Kid you not within two weeks. It was just Different. I spoke to each and every one of them to ask them. They were like, yeah, I was interviewed literally four months ago. They felt like they were going to get the job, but it was almost like they did the interview process, but it's almost like they just wanted to have someone who looked. Do you understand?

Nkechi: 12:02

Obviously, being a more diverse site means you have to accommodate. So prayer rooms won't be used as storage, it'll be prayer rooms, right, that's right. So things like that. Or, you know, the toilets won't be just women's toilets, won't just be disabled toilets, it will be women's toilets, right. So there's certain things that they could bend a little bit because, or they can get away with on site because of these things. So, yeah, yeah. So that showed me now that when I saw that, I was like okay, the power is in the client and creating awareness for them how much they can influence their project to legacy they want to have the thing that you mentioned that's piqued my interest is around the responsibility that you've got to do the third party authentication, third party judgment.

Darren Evans : 12:47

What is it that you have seen change over the last three to four years with how engaged clients are or not, with the overall CSR?

Nkechi: 12:59

I believe clients now are becoming more aware and what I've, not just clients but also investors. Let's look at that way as well. I think that's a key thing, and especially now we have the ESG as well, and I'm noticing that a lot of the companies that are because, mind you, when I'm judging and reviewing these documentation of these companies, we don't have not even close to 10 construction companies accredited, so and we've got a very big, you know industry, at least what? At least over 100,000 construction companies.

Nkechi: 13:33

So you've only got 10 organisations, not even 10?, not even up to 10.

Darren Evans : 13:38

Okay, so talk through them, because maybe some people have not heard about this organisation that you're a part of. Just break that down why someone would want to accreditate with your organisation okay, so, yeah, so, with the CSR.

Nkechi: 13:51

So essentially is is having a third party to make that judgment for you. So it's not like you are saying it, and so what that does is also set the foundation for those who are looking for, let's say, esg investments and invest investors to invest in their business or potential projects. It just lays that foundation for them and we find that a lot of the ESG investors, or those who are looking for that side, are inclined to want to consider you more based on those reasons. The benefit of this is that there's lots of training to some extent for yourself, for your organization, in how to the corporate way and then filter right down to site. These are areas that we could be looking at as well in regards to training and support for your organisation, but it's getting it right for the right reasons.

Nkechi: 14:39

One of the key things of the founder was that he was explaining to me that how most people come, most companies come to be for obviously the wrong reasons but end up as they're going through the process, it turns in that they actually realize the value of it down the line. So he said to me don't get phased by the reasons, it's just got to start somewhere. So I said, okay, that's fine. So I had to be open-minded, because even with the work I'm doing with nice, you had to be open-minded with that. My ideal client may not be ready yet for me. So what are the stages to get them to be ready for where I want them to be in regards to working with them?

Nkechi: 15:15

So I had to take some step backs as well. In a type of way, I would want to work with clients but, yeah, it's so valuable for them because then now you know it's not just hearsay. It's not just hearsay, it's not just your document. You've got the certification for the three years. Does that make sense? And then we renew it again and you identify gaps as well within your organizations what's your connection with genesis?

Nkechi: 15:35

nice, so nice is. I founded that. So obviously, like I explained to you before, I started that in 2019, I was originally just as a design and build consultancy firm for tier one contractors, and then then, obviously, my PhD. As I'm going through my studies and learning, I realised that I, through my design management work for this company, I wasn't as responsive as I could be and so, yeah, a lot of things that I was doing was not so I considered myself as a reformed design manager, design management consultant, and now NICE is going in the direction of becoming more of a responsible project management consultancy firm.

Nkechi: 16:12

We tend to focus. Now we've got six pillars that we look at. That truly makes sure. If we focus on these areas in any one organisation, it makes you more of a holistic, responsible business. So it's the social value, it's the environment sustainability, it's the procurement value. It's the environment sustainability, it's the procurement act. So these are the ones that are government led. And then we have this CSR. We have the ESG and the CSRD. So you can't become CSRD if you haven't done ESG, if you're not yet got those kind of awards any. You can't become that if you haven't got your CSR.

Nkechi: 16:44

What does that mean with your organization to meet that. And then what does that mean? Right down to site? Because I feel most organisations I go into I'm like I love their website, I love what they're saying. When you go to site it's like it just doesn't match like the conversation and I see like senior members teasing junior members because they have to go for environmental training. To some extent it's like no, that's not. I don't believe that's the culture of what your board's expecting to some extent and what you portray. So it's just, how do we filter that right down to site? And like the consistency there's somewhere between site management in these office boards there's something missing and it's not quite meeting it.

Darren Evans : 17:27

And so is that the work that you're doing with genesis yes, so yeah so how are you trying to bridge that gap then? I'm assuming from what you're saying that that exists within genesis as an organization as well yes.

Nkechi: 17:38

So what we're trying to do now is we we will work on. So we notice now that obviously with design management we cover most of it. So when we're doing our planning conditions, building regulations, environmental agency, so we do have some of the links already from that perspective. But what we want to do is let them go over and beyond. Do you understand?

Nkechi: 17:58

What we find is that a lot of contractors if they identify a potential issue with certain elements of the project, if it's a client responsibility, they may not raise it first. They kind of wait for the client technical team to kind of raise it and it becomes a financial implication for the client and so then that adds on to the time and so forth, whereas we have a mindset where we come and say, ok, we assess, so that's almost from the PCSA stage Assess it fully, assess it and give a true identity, highlight everything with the project, because sometimes I feel like clients are going for the lowest cost in a sense and things, and maybe it was highlighted to them and they're like, ok, well, we've got this budget, so let's just go for that one and figure it out later. Also, I'm finding that more that some of the subcontractors, they sign in because it's a big organisation and it's like a level up for them. They sign into contracts. They don't even fully understand the responsibilities that is put upon them.

Darren Evans : 19:00

So are you saying, then, that the tier one organisations will want to do these changes because they feel that they have to in order to win and keep the contract? But the culture of the organisation is not shifted, because what they're doing is leaning on the supply chain to make them look good and get the boxes ticked.

Nkechi: 19:20

Correct. That's what I'm seeing. I haven't been somewhere yet that it's not that way, Even to the point where I think one of the most recent one where the developer themselves outright said that yeah, you need to demonstrate your social value.

Darren Evans : 19:33

So if there is a tier one contractor listening to this podcast and they're like no, no, no, this is definitely not us, that definitely doesn't happen, what three things would you say that they can do to evaluate Actually, is this us? Are we part of this issue?

Nkechi: 19:48

one of the ways is are you always using your preferred list? So that's one way because if and and you use it, obviously you got into the market, but then you end up really just using your preferred list. If you're one of those ones, it's likely yes, I get it because you want to be sure that you've tested and tried the contractor. You know what to buy, I get it, but we need to be sure that you've tested and tried the contractor. You know what to buy, I get it, but we need to open the market up now for other those are coming through. The second one would be the type of support you give to your supply chain the support, genuine support towards them. So I do know one or two contractors who have taken them from levels to levels, have taken them from levels to levels, but it's how you treat your supply chain and creating that safe space for them to let you know that they may not have that full resources because you can make it work, even if we have to lean on, you know, our own team to deliver some of our work together there could be. You know the collaborative way of working. I think that's. The third one is how you collaborate with your sub, your subcontractors, your supply chain is another way that you would know whether you are part of the problem or the solution as well. And then you you know delays on projects. Sometimes it's just around those areas there, the responsibilities.

Nkechi: 21:02

I've been in a project where they will find I think 270 000 pounds for not for, I think each. I think it's £7,000 for each point that they meet social value point. And this organisation has over 10 social value managers in the organisation, over 10. So I was like this is not possible. The assigned social value manager from head office would then put pressure on maybe new staff members or you know, those who are like apprentice on there and I've had to kind of encourage and say look, this is not your job, do you understand? It's a social. If they've got a social value manager, that's what they're designed to do. They should be here regularly on site. So again, it's all about the connection from office to site as well, especially that administration and keeping on top of that data.

Darren Evans : 21:53

That is key as well what have you found works really well in organizations that want to shift from what they're doing at the moment to becoming more aware, and in the CSR space?

Nkechi: 22:05

I'm looking at at the more of the subcontractors and lever them themselves up if they want to work on certain types of projects. It's kind of down to them to do that. So I've been trying to look at ways of you know creating knowledge around that, you know toolkits and you know step by step so they could use and kind of look at where are, where are you at right now, understand what you where you are, and then of look at where are you at right now, understand where you are and then your roadmap to where you want to be in the next five years and then begin to work through that. So I feel like it's put the main contractors on one side. Subcontractors themselves, they need to start to, yes, bid for these work, bid for these projects, but make sure that you can meet that, and that's what we're here to support in those areas anyways.

Nkechi: 22:49

But be realistic about it. What is it that you can really do when it comes to your environmental strategy, your social strategy? You know your governance. What does that really mean for your organization, even if it's free of you? What does that really mean for free? And then work through, because the more honest you are about that, it can work out well, because I'm seeing now, with a lot of the government projects, they are being more, they're trying to find ways to break down their packages and their projects as well now. So there's an opportunity for you to really just you know if it's your area, that is, if you know there's an area and gap that you are passionate about, focus on that and they, like it's a hype. For those reasons as well, do you want to do some building.

Nkechi: 23:31

Okay.

Darren Evans : 23:33

So this construction here, if I was to describe it, it reminds me of a wall, some kind of barrier.

Nkechi: 23:40

So it represents obviously. So not too long ago I went for the transportation Department. Of Transportation have been going for a road show to discuss about the Procurement Act. This is London, so I went to Birmingham, so they had a London one. The Birmingham transportation have been going for a road show to discuss about the procurement act.

Darren Evans : 23:51

This is london so they were.

Nkechi: 23:53

I went to birmingham so they had a bit, had a london one, the birmingham they're going all over. So road show mean that they're going around the uk to talk about the procurement act and their supply chain as in their tier one contractors. So I end up find myself at the birmingham one, and so when we were there, what they did was they brought the tier one, the big contractors, and they brought VCSEs, so that's volunteering, charities, social enterprises and SMEs. They were all in the space and the whole point of the meeting was to demonstrate to their main contractors that there are VCSEs and SMEs you can work with main contractors, that there are VCSEs and SMEs you can work with and these are organisations that we are trying to get them into their own supply chain as well as into their database as well. So they said, basically, use opportunity to discuss and come together. So I spoke to one or two of them, a few of them, and they were like saying to me this is I think it's a myth, my myth, their myth is that SMEs are not competent enough to deliver on such large projects.

Nkechi: 24:55

And so I was like to him, I was trying to understand, I was like, ok, how I was so confused. I was like, yeah, you know, because we're doing infrastructure. And so I said, ok, so is there landscape in your scope? He goes, yeah, so an architect can do that, right, he goes, yeah, so that he goes. Yeah, so an architect can do that, right, he goes, yeah, so that's coming SME. It's like, oh yeah, true. I said have you got lighting, like street lighting? That could be a small package. Another design firm or lighting firm could do that. And he goes oh yes, so that's the myth.

Nkechi: 25:23

The myth is that SMEs cannot meet up with the you know, the major mega projects that we have. And okay, that's the myth. I believe that's the big myth. It's all about understanding their scope. Even if it means that this package of work is broken down into five firms and break down into phases of the build, that could work. It's just finding a way. If you really really want to bring in VCSCs and SMEs into your projects, you can find a way. It's just finding that make an opportunity, being intentional about it. That's my myth.

Darren Evans : 25:56

That's the myth I love that, yeah, and I think you're so right it's. I think it's a really, really important message for smes to remember as well is that you can position yourself to go and bid for those types of works. Just because you're not a tier one contractor or a big organisation, don't put yourself out of the game.

Nkechi: 26:17

So there's lots of things that's been done. You know, for example, Westminster Council now have created a supply chain readiness programme. So now, and from what I understand is that the database, their database, once you're on their database it's shared amongst all other councils and everyone's using, because now they're trying to be more transparent amongst themselves. So once you get yourself through the door, there's no stopping you.

Darren Evans : 26:40

basically, and that's it, kachi. We'll just get rid of that myth. So for SMEs out there listening to this podcast, where might they start to look and how might they approach getting involved on big, major projects and big major infrastructure?

Nkechi: 27:00

so so far, obviously we have the government contract website so you can start there. A lot of them you start to see now it says smes, vcscs, so you start to see once you see that that's a doorway in start to begin to look for like supply chain programs with the councils. They they're starting to come up and if you need that support from NICE, we can. We can help as well in this area as well with you and walk through those, those stages of you to start to level up.

Darren Evans : 27:27

How can someone get in contact with NICE? What does NICE stand nice stand for?

Nkechi: 27:31

yeah, so nice it stands. Obviously we're about responsible businesses and responsible projects. So we support in especially construction industry anyways, and we want to ensure that your business is responsible. So, as I explained to you before, the six, the six pillars that we focus on, which is your social value, your, your environmental sustainability, your, your procurement act? You know these are areas that you have to demonstrate, especially when you're getting these big mega projects that are linked to the government or social. You have to make sure you have some sort of policy procedures and like how you implement that from the business to site. Everything must be in line so we can support in these areas. So, if you want to get in contact with us through info, info at wearenicecom is one way to contact us, and I'm also on linkedin, so you can catch me on linkedin as well. So, whichever way, and then, yeah, we can take it from there, that's great catchy.

Darren Evans : 28:27

It's been really great having you on the podcast today. I've loved our our conversation.

Nkechi: 28:31

Thank you for having me.

Darren Evans : 28:32

I'm wondering if you might want to just leave us with one piece of wisdom that you think if someone did this one thing whether they're in a big company, small company, whether they're looking for work or whether they've got work but if they just did this one thing, it would make all the difference what would that be?

Nkechi: 28:51

I've been on projects where people have passed away, people have given birth, just so. Much happens beyond just construction itself. There's life outside of construction, and so we just need to be considerate of that life outside construction. Yes, we have deadlines to meet. Yes, there is, you know, numbers to crunch. Does that make sense? But there's life outside of these projects, and so we want us, is, you know, numbers to crunch, if that makes sense? But there's life outside of these projects, and so we want us to remember, you know, others have things going on, and so if we're more considerate, sometimes we find that because I'm concerned about the amount of people leaving construction, and so if we are more care care, we show more care to one another. You know, even under the high pressure of our work, we will still stick it out. You know, because someone you know was a little bit kinder to us. You know, in the midst of pressure we have to just kind of factor life.

Darren Evans : 29:43

It's been a pleasure having you on the show. Thank you, thank you very much, thank you.