Danielle Michalska: 0:00

15% of the UK construction industry is female and of that 15% the majority are admin roles. That tells a lot. I've actually worked for Barrett for nearly 15 years. I'm now Group Technical Innovation Manager in their Group Design and Technical department.

Darren Evans: 0:14

It's a male feeling.

Danielle Michalska: 0:15

I'm sure that you have to provide for your family and you should be the breadwinner People get so tied up on. You know this is a career and it's what I've got to do for life. It's not I wanted to be a bricklayer. There's been a huge cultural shift change in the last eight to ten years. There's a big change to how homeowners are going to have to use their homes. Overheating's only going to become worse with climate change. That's probably the biggest challenge the industry's facing at the moment.

Darren Evans: 0:41

At Barrett, it sounds like your role has evolved, as opposed to you've gone from one job to another job to another job.

Danielle Michalska: 0:48

Absolutely yeah. So it started as a graduate, obviously, and then a coordinator role, and then a manager, and then a senior manager within the business, and that that role has definitely evolved, rather than it being a change in the job itself. And I think that's just with the change we're seeing in industry. You know, we see the biggest change the industry has ever seen in the last two years, particularly with regulation changes, you know. So my role has had to evolve to cater for those needs.

Darren Evans: 1:13

Have you orchestrated that change at all when you first started at Barrett? So be honest here, because you're a very intelligent lady. Did you orchestrate? I'm getting in here and I've seen an opportunity and what I'm going to do is pull these strings here because I know that that can put me where I want and I can add value to the company as well, because no one else has spotted this probably a bit of both.

Danielle Michalska: 1:34

A bit of both, I think. The fact that the business is forward thinking and has always wanted to be at the forefront and industry leading has helped. But then there was definitely a gap within industry, not just at Barrett, at all house developers absolutely for that type of role. Yeah um, and you know I don't think I'd be out of turn saying Barrett were the first to have a kind of technical innovation R&D department.

Darren Evans: 1:54

Um so, they were the first one that we've ever known or dealt with like by a country mile yeah.

Danielle Michalska: 1:59

so it was a little bit of both the fact that we were a forward-thinking business and was the support network to do that, and a little bit that it's a niche. There's not many people doing it. There's an opportunity here for me and it's something I really enjoy and thrive off. So a combination of them both, I think, is kind of what brought me to where I am today.

Darren Evans: 2:16

And you make reference to you really going for it in terms of your career. So what does that mean for you, then, with Barrett?

Danielle Michalska: 2:25

For me, me going for it isn't necessarily a senior title, it's personal professional achievements for me. So you know, making sure that I'm comfortable in the work that I do, I'm happy in that work and having a great work-life balance with that. So for me that that is success and going for it. I love my job. You are in your job more than you are at home. It's a lot lot of, you know, long working hours, so you need to enjoy what you do. So for me it was around making sure that the role I'm doing is enjoyable, that I like it, but I'm also successful in it. You know I want people to talk to me and feel comfortable in what I'm saying and walk away and say, ah, do you know what? She knows what she's talking about? Or actually I've just got that little nugget of information from Danielle that that was great. Like I didn't realize that. So sharing knowledge as well, you know that's that's a really big part of what I do.

Darren Evans: 3:14

What advice would you give to someone that's in a position similar to what you were, where they think they want to go into the construction industry in some way, shape or form, but because they've maybe just finished their A-levels, they're not quite sure what that might look like.

Danielle Michalska: 3:26

Experience. Go and get some experience, whether it's unpaid or just a couple of weeks voluntary work. Get a feel for it. Understand it, because it's not for everybody. It isn't, and that's the same with any job, not just construction. You know what you don't want to do is feel that you have to go into something because you studied it as well. So don't be afraid to go into jobs that you haven't studied for. There's a lot of people in the built environment that have done geography degrees, history degrees, maths. You know they're not actually vocational to the built environment.

Danielle Michalska: 3:56

So I think my advice is if you want something and you're interested in it, go for it, but be sure you know. Go and have a trial test, ask questions, do research and look. If you go somewhere and it's not for you, move on. You know it's not the end of the world and I think people get so tied up on. You know this is a career and it's what I've got to do for life. It's not.

Danielle Michalska: 4:15

You know you can do something and you can be really late in life 50, and say do you know what? This isn't for me anymore. I want a career change. That doesn't matter. It's just got to be about enjoying it and being satisfied in the role, but also feeling you add value. You know, I think for me that's the biggest bit of advice I'd give to anyone make sure you're enjoying it, that you're adding value, but also play on your strengths. You know, you've got to got to understand what you're good at, what you're not so good at, and pick a role to suit that, because you're not going to enjoy something if you're not very good at it.

Darren Evans: 4:41

Good advice. I like that. What is it that you have seen trends-wise that's going on at the moment in the industry, specifically in housing? What trends have you seen go on at the moment?

Danielle Michalska: 4:51

Well, we've got to talk about the big one, haven't we? Low carbon heating you know we've got the future home standard coming from government in 2025, and the shift towards no gas. You know that's probably the biggest challenge the industry is facing at the moment and and everyone's working towards it. And I think something that's um, really, really interesting is historically, developers worked in silos. You know they're our competitors. Let's not work together. We worked against each other. We are not seeing that there's been a huge cultural shift change in the last eight to ten years and we work together, you know, for the, for the greater good of both the industry, but also to support smes. We're a volume know for the, for the greater good of both the industry, but also to support SMEs. We're a volume developer, so we've got a lot of the resource, the capacity. Small developers don't have that. So the biggest trend we're seeing at the moment is that that journey towards zero carbon, but also the low carbon heating definitely.

Darren Evans: 5:39

It's interesting. You make reference to collaboration and working with what some may describe as competitors. Who is it that Barrett works with?

Danielle Michalska: 5:47

Anyone and everyone. You know we don't have an open door policy. You know, if it means that we can learn something, gain knowledge and also deliver a better product to our customer, then we will work with people. So you know, we work with all of the major house builders. So Taylor Wimpy, bellway, persimmon Vistri. So we work with all of the major house builders so Taylor Wimpy, bellway, persimmon Fistry. So we work with all of those guys and collaborate. But we also we're part of other groups. So with the Future Homes Hub, we work with them as well. But we also lobby to government. So we're kind of open-minded. And also SMEs we're here to support. We sit on the FMB, so the Federation of Master Builders and we'll support.

Darren Evans: 6:25

So the Federation of Master Builders will support. From that sense as well. What is it that you do with these kind of larger competitors, when you say you work with them? Just give me an example of the types of things that you'll do together.

Danielle Michalska: 6:33

So whether it be regulation consultations, you know we'll review them in partnership, so we're not missing anything. So we're all making sure that we're on the same page, that we've got the same messages to deliver back to industry. But then more recently we've had the e-home two in the energy house at Salford. So that's obviously in partnership with Sangerban. We've got our supply chain, who are huge partners as well, and Salford University. But Belway have also built a house in there. So we're working really closely with Belway to make sure we're disseminating all the results and all of our learnings.

Danielle Michalska: 7:01

you not just from our house, from theirs as well okay, so that sounds like you're sharing information bellway are sharing with you and you're sharing absolutely yeah what has come out of that experiment, if I can use the word experiment, that has surprised you I think, the need for a more uniformed approach in design and collaboration, because you only get things right if you work together and you know listen to everybody, let everyone have their say and have you know if you've got a diverse work group. That's how innovation is formed and how you get the best out of people. Because ultimately, when you work individually or you do do it as we know. So if we just say, well, we're doing it the Barrett way, because that's what we know, we're never going to improve, we're never going to strive to that level. Let's take on other people's views as well and collaborate together. I think the biggest outcome of that has been the collaboration has helped and making sure that we're designing right from the outset. So whatever we deliver at the end is good quality.

Darren Evans: 7:56

What would you say? At the moment is being overlooked or maybe is kind of underestimated.

Danielle Michalska: 8:01

I don't think it's being overlooked, but it's not yet pushed far enough up the agenda. It's consumer education it's definitely there, it's on the radar and people talk about it. So it's not that it's overlooked, it just probably isn't the priority or pushed far enough up. And that is a big one, because we can build the best quality homes low carbon, energy efficient and if customers do not know how to run those homes or use those homes, they're no longer efficient and actually there's a big change to how homeowners are going to have to use their homes. We're going more smart, so homes are more smart and more techie.

Darren Evans: 8:31

You know we're moving away from gas boilers, so we need to educate the homeowners on what technology they've got in their home, what it is, how to use it, how to maintain it and make sure they get the most out of their home.

Danielle Michalska: 8:45

What are Barrett doing in that space at the moment, then, to try and bridge that gap? So we've got a team that actually look at all of our consumer relations. So we do surveys, sending them out to prospectus people, we do sessions with different consumer groups, so, whether that be first-time buyers, downsizers, the kind of what we call mover-uppers, so kind of upsizing in their home, and we have different categories that we look at. So it could be how do you feel about heat pumps in your home? Or how do you feel about modern methods of construction? Would you be comfortable with your home being built this way? And we have then consumer focus groups and they then help us inform, actually, what is it the customer wants, because ultimately, they're at the heart of everything we do. We have no business without our customers so is that not backwards, though?

Darren Evans: 9:29

you go into the customer and say this is what you need, as opposed to going to them and asking them what they want. And so I'll give you an example, and it's probably a well-used one. Henry ford didn't look for faster horses, he created the motor engine. And I know that you could probably say, oh, but it's polluting, blah, blah, blah. I accept that, but just that. Understand the principle. You know, steve Jobs didn't come to the world and say would you like the internet and everything that you can ever wish for, including songs and movies on a glass fronted device that you can carry around in your hand, because the consumer wouldn't say that. But he came up with the idea and concept of the iPhone, even though Black BlackBerry were like there's no way this is going to take off because it's absolutely useless. We have got the thing that the world wants. So, with those two as an example and there are others do you not think that that approach is backwards?

Danielle Michalska: 10:17

So the approach is twofold. So we say this is what we're doing, what do you think? But we also ask them what they want and what their expectations are. You know, and by some of that we do have to inform a little bit. So, because some of these people haven't got a clue about house building or technology, so we do a lot of work in Europe, so we've been to Denmark, sweden, holland to look and learn from what they're doing. So then we'll take some of that back and say to the consumers you know, what do you think of these? One we did many years ago actually, and it still tickles me I went to a focus group and I sat behind a glass panel so they couldn't see me, but we could see them and it was about modern methods of construction and offsite.

Danielle Michalska: 10:51

And we showed them some different methods of construction timber frame, steel frame, offsite manufacture, full volumetric and then we showed them some logos of brands IKEA, apple, barrett, john Lewis and other developers and ask them who they would trust most building in each of those categories. And for the volumetric that they deemed as flat pack, they actually said Ikea or Apple. They would rather build their house because of the brand association to delivering something that's modern, something that's considered more flat pack, and it just shows how the consumer's brain works, you know. So we've also got a journey of giving confidence to the consumer that actually what we do and what we deliver and what we build is we know what we're doing and you're going to get something that's quality at the end so I love that example and I'm a bit of a geek on these types of things.

Darren Evans: 11:38

Did you know that microsoft came up with a competitor to the ipod? Did you know that? No, I didn't. Most people don't. Did you know that it actually was better than the iPod? It could store more, it was quicker, the sound quality was better, but it wasn't Apple. But no one really cared and no one knows, because it wasn't Apple.

Danielle Michalska: 11:59

So that point that you've made about brand association is so important it is, and I think that's why we as a business and you know, not just Barrett all house builders, because we get often tarred with the bad brush house builders we don't build a bad house on purpose. There's always going to be problems. Nobody is perfect, but what we're trying to do is be industry leading good quality homes that are sustainable and energy efficient for future generations. You know that's what we want to do and that's genuinely what we're trying to achieve. You know it's not smoke and mirrors, we're not trying to do anything underhand. So you know I like to think that I'm biased. You know that we have got a good brand, got a great brand and, as other house builders, so, within this space of innovation or doing things different, there is risk.

Danielle Michalska: 12:38

Absolutely.

Darren Evans: 12:38

Where do Barrett take risks?

Danielle Michalska: 12:40

So we are super risk averse because ultimately it lies with our customer. So our risk is and trials well in advance of anything getting to a site level or the end user, because ultimately it's too late by the time it gets to that point. So our risk heavily goes into the R&D area. Although I work in innovation, I'm super risk averse, so we question everything. Everything is questioned. Everything takes a long time. There's a lot of red tape to go through. We wouldn't just see a new product, review it and say, oh great, let's go for it. There's a lot of work that goes into that and that's not just in our team. That's cross collaboration with different departments, right from land and planning, commercial construction, procurement. We have a really, really strong, close connection with all of those departments when we're looking at introducing new products or systems or even processes.

Darren Evans: 13:31

So yeah, I'm not talking here about the risk to bring it to market. That then potentially puts people's safety and health and all the rest of that into question. I'm talking more of risk, of how and what is it that you do to make sure that you are consistently innovating and consistently moving forward? Or is the word innovation just a cover up for we're catching up with legislation?

Danielle Michalska: 13:55

Oh no, absolutely not. You know, for us, innovation is about forward thinking and that's part of my role, so we are always looking. I mentioned earlier, you know, we go across to different countries. We've had people in our team go to Japan to look at how they build high rise. We've been over to America to look at their timber frame and how they can erect it and deconstruct it. So we're always looking for what could happen, what could come, what potentially is out there as well.

Danielle Michalska: 14:21

So that's a part of the role, but then we've also got the part where we also need to just meet regulation. But you know we're definitely always looking for how can we better what we currently do?

Darren Evans: 14:30

You're involved heavily in the Zed House.

Danielle Michalska: 14:32

Yes.

Darren Evans: 14:33

You enjoyed working on that.

Danielle Michalska: 14:34

Yeah, great project In conjunction with yourself.

Darren Evans: 14:42

So what would you say were the three takeaways that you had, or three learning elements that you had as a business, from doing the Zed House?

Danielle Michalska: 14:47

I think we've touched on one of them earlier, and it's around collaboration. You know, collaboration is key. We could not have done that project without our supply chain partners. It just wouldn't have been possible, you know how many did you have in that supply?

Darren Evans: 14:57

how many was in that supply chain partner?

Danielle Michalska: 14:59

over 60 60, okay fine yeah, so we had lots of supply chain partners, so that's kind of one of the big takeaways. Second is around technologies their self. Actually, they don't all work together, they don't all integrate with one another, and it's about finding a sweet spot. So you don't need to go all heavy on everything, and that was never the intention. Anyway with the Z house. We wanted to trial lots of different technologies and see how they work together and integrated.

Darren Evans: 15:23

So can you give me an example of when you say lots of technologies, for those that don't know what technologies were in the Z house and what were some of the struggles about trying to bring those together?

Danielle Michalska: 15:32

So we had underfloor heating. We had air source heat pumps. We looked at different heat emitters as well, so we looked at a skirting board that can heat the home. We had standard radiators. We had infrared panels. Now, you would never have all of those in conjunction with each other in a house, but we wanted to trial and test each of them independently to see actually how do they work, get consumer feedback, and we had some students living in there for a couple of weeks to give us feedback of some of those systems. We had pv on the roof, so photovoltaics to provide electricity. We had battery storage.

Danielle Michalska: 16:05

But I think the other key thing that people miss here is it wasn't just about energy efficiency and zero carbon. That house. We also looked at embodied carbon. We looked at biodiversity net gain, so making sure that there was nature included in that, because we're building on large sites and taking away from that, so we need to make sure that we're putting that back in as well. So it was kind of a holistic project to look at the wider. What could we do?

Darren Evans: 16:28

I kind of butted in on the second example or the second lesson that you learned. What was the third one?

Danielle Michalska: 16:32

Third one controls.

Darren Evans: 16:34

Okay.

Danielle Michalska: 16:35

Controls is a huge thing. We talked about it earlier, about a consumer being able to be educated and understanding how to use their home. If you have not got simple controls, there is no point. You know, that was a really big lesson learned and we've tried to change that and take the lessons learned from that and apply it in the energy house, the home two that we've done across the road with Salford University as well.

Darren Evans: 16:55

I geek out every now and again on behavior. I don't know if we've I don't think we've had this conversation before, but there's a. There's a guy that I've got a lot of respect for. He's a professor at Stanford University and he says in order to make something easier, you need to work on five things. This was one of the five things or multiple that will make things harder, but to make it easy, you need to work on one of the five, so a time is one of them. The other one is money, the other one is physical energy, the other one's mental energy and the last one is routine. So it's interesting that you mention about controls and how it becomes difficult, because it's probably mental energy and routine that probably affect how people use the building the most or struggle with the new technology being introduced to what they're used to.

Danielle Michalska: 17:39

Yeah, but it's also simplicity. People's lives have changed. We are a fast-paced generation and everyone is busy, whether it be with work, with children, with personal life. It's just people are busy and everyone is looking for simplicity and we're becoming a digital world. That's happening and I am not tech savvy, believe it or not, so you know it blows my mind some of the things that you can do now, you know, with your phone and your lights and cameras and all of that stuff. But it's becoming an expectation from a consumer. They just want simplicity. People don't want to have to press a dial, program it in, look in a booklet how to do it. They want it to be intuitive. They want to pick up their phone or they want to use voice activation. You know, and we're seeing that come through more and more. So it's about having simple controls, but also universal controls, because not, as I, not everyone is tech savvy and we've got a really aging demographic in our country. So there's the older generation.

Darren Evans: 18:32

Would you say the overall learning was from the Zed House, Like when you bring it all together. What did you discover? What were you reminded of? I?

Danielle Michalska: 18:41

think that anything is possible. You know, and I think we've said this all along to government as well with any regulation that's coming, anything is possible. But it's about having the information up front, having a robust roadmap, having a delivery mechanism to make sure that we can get there and we can do it efficiently, but also that we can do things that are practical and in volume. And I think that's what the zed house taught us is what, what is practically possible for a volume house that builder to do, because you see these houses on grand designs and people are all they can do that of course they can. They've got millions of pounds to throw at it, but also it's one, one unit. You know they're not building 17 000 of those.

Darren Evans: 19:17

So I think that's the biggest lesson learned is you know understanding what's deliverable, what we can do in volume and at scale, but also what's right for the customer the government, obviously recently, are saying that they are going to ensure that I've forgotten their stat now, but they're going to ensure that all of these houses are going to be built within a very short space of time.

Danielle Michalska: 19:37

We've got 300,000 homes. They want to build a year, isn't it?

Darren Evans: 19:40

That's the stat. Is it 300,000? 300,000, I think it was. Yeah, in a year. So what's that? And as of 2025, low carbon.

Danielle Michalska: 19:47

So we've obviously got a shortage in skills to deliver some of those systems yes, so so could you.

Darren Evans: 19:54

I guess my question is is the zed house the answer to that question?

Danielle Michalska: 19:58

no, it's a combination of the lessons that we learn from the zed house and other research that we're doing elsewhere, whether that be on live sites or with our supply chain and the the energy house in um with sulfate as well. We will take a combination of all those lessons and to make sure that we've got a right fit for an end product.

Darren Evans: 20:16

When you hear the government come out with comments and aspirations like they have recently, what's the first thing that comes to mind?

Danielle Michalska: 20:23

It's a tough target.

Darren Evans: 20:24

Is it achievable I?

Danielle Michalska: 20:25

think it's early days. 300,000 is a lot of homes. You know the market's creeping up but we've had a tough market in the last 12, 18 months and you know with affordability and the way interest rates have gone. So anything is possible. You know it really is. But we need to be realistic and that is a tough target.

Darren Evans: 20:41

So whether we'll meet that, I'm not convinced for sure and then the other thing as well, and this probably is a bit of a tricky one for you to answer but is it actually going to do anything for affordability building that volume of homes? Does it really mean that the house prices are going to come down if there are more houses?

Danielle Michalska: 20:58

I don't know, darren Genuinely, whether that will impact pricing or not, or whether it will just help the housing crisis in terms of houses available. I don't know. There's a long way to go. In terms of lenders and valuations, you know, as a business, we've got a team that look at that. You know they're looking at working with the mortgage lenders to understand, you know, is there benefits in buying a new build home and can they have? Is it whether there's preferential rates or is your affordability better because actually your bills are lower? So there's a lot of work going on around that.

Darren Evans: 21:28

Let's talk about the, the social landlords and rented space. I think Barrett's get involved in that as well, don't you?

Danielle Michalska: 21:33

We do, but it's not our core business. So we do do all their social and affordable and we do land deals with those, but we are predominantly still private.

Darren Evans: 21:44

Yeah. So how do you counter the argument that says that the net zero agenda is just a financial burden?

Danielle Michalska: 21:51

We've got targets to meet. So you know we are behind as a country on zero carbon and carbon emissions. So of course there is a financial implication, as there is to anything, and that's an ongoing joke we have in our business. I'm always the bearer of bad news because the role that I do and complying with building regulations and future standards I'm always delivering bad news to the business because it's going to cost money. But ultimately I mentioned it earlier we're on board with that and we acknowledge that.

Danielle Michalska: 22:18

But it's understanding how we can do it in the best, most efficient way. So you know it doesn't have to be that it's a complete cripples you by doing it. So yeah, there is a burden, a financial burden, but that's always going to be the case because anything that you increase or improve and it stabilizes over time, you know anything. If you look 10-15 years ago the price of PV, how expensive that was. And now it's become more standardized. The price has come down so much and is much more achievable for everyone, much more accessible even for the general public to now have on their homes as well. So yes, there's a price associated to doing that, but over time and in volumes and as things evolve and new technologies come on board. You know we hopefully that will all equalize out.

Darren Evans: 22:57

And what do you think good ultimately looks like for the new build sector in the UK?

Danielle Michalska: 23:02

Happy customers. It's got to be, you know, as long as we've got an end user that is satisfied with the product that they're living in and they've got an energy efficient home that's sustainable to live in. And and you know, building great communities as well, it's not just about the home itself, it's the whole sites that we build, and making sure that we've got great communities for people to live in. That's that's got to be the the end goal, hasn't it?

Darren Evans: 23:23

one of the prevailing themes that I discuss with females in the construction industry is it's very, very heavily male dominated, and that shows up in different ways for different people. How's that shown up for you and where have you seen the advantage of it being a predominantly male dominated industry, with you being a female?

Danielle Michalska: 23:42

navigating a male dominated industry as a female can seem daunting, not gonna lie, and it comes with its challenges, but there is a shift, definitely particularly over the last five or so years, whereby it's becoming much more diverse and it's it's less of a contentious subject that you know, there's women in construction. I think the stat is, and you might correct me or someone might, but I won't correct you because I don't know but 15% of the UK construction industry is female and of that 15% majority are admin roles.

Danielle Michalska: 24:13

That tells a lot and actually I've been super lucky because I've come into this industry. I've not really suffered from any negativity of me being female. But I'm a certain character and you do have to be strong-minded and you do have to accept things but have a voice, be heard, because actually everyone has something to offer and give and that's not just in the construction industry, that's in other industries that are maybe female dominated and males have an opportunity to give. But I think the thing that sticks out for me is I was probably three years into to working in the industry and we'd done a site visit and I spent 25 minutes talking to this colleague male colleague about their role and what they do and the business and different bits and pieces, and at the end he then said oh so which sales team do you work for? I was like oh, I don't, I work in technical and this is my role. And he was like oh, oh, sorry, I just assumed you work in sales. And I'm thinking I actually stopped. My brain ticked for a moment. I'm thinking was that just because I'm a girl did? Did he think because I'm female, he'd made that assumption, hadn't even bothered to listen to the conversations we've been having or engaging it, and I just made that assumption.

Danielle Michalska: 25:19

It is tough. It is tough but we've all got something to offer and as long as you believe in yourself and and as I said, be heard, show, prove people wrong. I'm a massive believer in that. Give me a challenge. If I can't it, I will learn how to do it. I'll find how to do it, I'll know someone that will show me how to do it and I'll prove people wrong. And I think that's the best bit of advice, because it's not for everyone. Don't get me wrong, it isn't for everyone, but I love the industry. I really thrive off the fast paced industry. It is. I actually get along with men probably better than women, so it works for me. You know, I've always had a lot of male friends growing up, so it's a great industry to be in. But you do just have to, you know, be mindful and think about putting yourself in a position whereby we're not different. So I don't go onto a site and think, well, I'm different, I'm female, they're not. That just doesn't cross my mind.

Danielle Michalska: 26:08

It did early doors. I remember I'd probably. It's when I joined Barrett. Actually, I'd been with the business about six months and I went to a government meeting in London and there was about 30 people round this round table and I walked in, I grabbed myself a drink, I sat down and I looked round the table. I thought I'm the only girl and for me that was my first time and probably only time ever. But then, when I thought I'm the only girl, I'm going to show everyone around here that I'm just as good as you are. I can do everything that you can do, and here I am representing.

Darren Evans: 26:42

It's interesting, isn't it? The fact that you're the only girl. It's the meaning that is attached to that, that you put on it, as opposed to the fact that you are actually only good. So it's not the fact that's the problem. It's the meaning that you put onto the fact it is yeah, and do you know what that's changed?

Danielle Michalska: 26:57

because I now sit around tables where we are very mixed. It's very diverse.

Darren Evans: 27:00

So what meaning do you put on that then? Because initially you were saying that the meaning that you put on I'm the only girl which is in, like I'm going to show you what I'm going to stand out, because I'm already standing out so the fact that now there's more females around the table, what meaning do you attach to that?

Danielle Michalska: 27:24

As an industry, we've demonstrated that it doesn't matter who you are, where you are or where you come from. You can be successful in it. And actually, what a boring world would be if everyone was the same, you know. And great ideas and innovation comes from that whole diversity and people being different and open to talk. And so, you know, I now sit around tables and I still think the same of I just now think there's more of us showing you, you know, there's more of us now showing you know we can do this and we're just as good, so do you mentor very many people.

Danielle Michalska: 27:43

I have, yeah, and as a business, we've also got a couple of programs that are kind of for women in construction. Um, so there was, uh, hbf did a program I think it was last year now time time flies so it may have been before, but I think it was 2023 around bringing more women into construction. So I did mentor on that and, you know, kind of present them, tell them how to get into industry, different options that are available to get into industry, but also give a little bit of my journey and my experience, just so they can see it is possible. You know, and I love my job, I love what I do, I just want to change gears slightly now and talk about innovation.

Darren Evans: 28:18

Vistri, I think, recently have taken the title of largest UK house builder. Barrett, for many, many years have been the largest house builder and so in my thinking, I reckon lots of people are knocking on the door saying I've got this new product. Can you please look at it? Is my thinking right? Does that happen?

Danielle Michalska: 28:35

Absolutely so. We've got multiple options of how we get new innovations. We actively go and seek them, so we will look what's on the market. We also challenge our existing supply chain so we have what we call supplier sandpits. The terminology sandpit is quite funny because apparently, as kids you know, you throw a load of kids into a sandpit at a park that don't know each other. Within 10 minutes they're best friends, they know each other and they're sharing information.

Darren Evans: 28:58

Interesting. Have you found that works with your children? No, it's not working with my children.

Danielle Michalska: 29:03

I throw them in and they come out prying.

Darren Evans: 29:05

That's what my experience is. There's always a bully in the sandpit.

Danielle Michalska: 29:09

But no, genuinely those workshops as well. We get some great ideas the weird, the wonderful and we support them. There's some ideas that come through that are probably not ready or they're in their infancy, but we can either direct them in the right direction or or another one of our key partners introduce them, and so there's that element of of how we can bring innovation through. But, like you said, we also have people just sending letters, emails, linkedin, saying, oh, we've got this product and we don't dismiss anything. You know, we kind of we will look at all options, um, but we have a really robust new product introduction and process that we go through to make sure we filter out products that either aren't suitable for us or aren't quite right, um, because otherwise we'd be there forever in a day and going through different innovations if there was someone listening to this, that has got a bright idea overheating.

Danielle Michalska: 29:57

Yeah, overheating in new homes and the new regulation has been a bane of our life for the last 12 months. It's a really tricky one, um. So coming up with um solutions that are suitable in the home to either effectively cool that don't cost too much to run or shading devices that don't impact the the feel of a home, um, because ultimately we don't large scale in london, high rise shading and bruce la and all that type of stuff and balconies it's standard. But you start adding that on to a standard low-rise home starts looking unordinary. So, yeah, I think any bright ideas to help over heating bring them our way you'd welcome them with their open arms.

Danielle Michalska: 30:35

Yeah, but as I say, and also, you know water is a big one that gets unspoken because we speak a lot about energy and heating and hot water demand in the home, but general water usage, you know there's people talk about saving water in the home and it's often with low flow showers, low flow taps or rainwater harvesting. But actually what is truly out there that we can reduce the water and that's modern or new or can fit in the home. So you know there's there's that element as well that often gets overlooked and missed what's the biggest problem at the moment that are facing housing developers?

Danielle Michalska: 31:08

it's probably the the overheating element, and that's because it's new as well. It's a new regulation that came in last year, so we're all learning as we go and I think government are also learning on that journey as well. So that's definitely probably the most tricky, but for us to navigate and understand and making sure that we're doing things the right way so someone listening to this may think well, if the property is just getting too hot, will they just come back on the insulation?

Darren Evans: 31:30

why would that not solve the problem?

Danielle Michalska: 31:31

because we also have targets for our fabric, so we've got to make sure our homes are energy efficient and meet those standards. So and overheating is only going to become worse with climate change. You know, we're wrapping our houses in more insulation, they're becoming more tight, and so it's only going to become more of a bigger focus, definitely.

Darren Evans: 31:46

Talk to me about this target that is that needs to be met for fabric. What does that mean?

Danielle Michalska: 31:51

So the fabric energy efficiency standards, that's within SAP, which is the software tool that we use to calculate the energy efficiency of our homes and to comply with Part L of the building regulations, and within that we've got a couple of metrics. One is the carbon reduction, to reduce that carbon, one's primary energy, to reduce the energy in the home. And one is what they call fabric energy efficiency standard, which is making sure that we've got a really good energy efficient home through a fabric first approach, before we start adding technology on to the home, such as renewables and solar panels.

Darren Evans: 32:23

What implication do you think that this will have with the home energy model, the changes that are coming in the future, that no one quite knows exactly when it's going to land?

Danielle Michalska: 32:33

If I had the answer to that, I would be a multi-millionaire.

Darren Evans: 32:35

You would.

Danielle Michalska: 32:36

Absolutely. It's such an unknown area at the moment in terms of the new home energy model and how that's going to evolve and sit and actually how that's going to differ to the results that SAP showed us and what that might mean in terms of what we have to do on new buildings going forward in 2025. It's a watch, this space scenario, that one what way are you approaching that?

Danielle Michalska: 32:55

So we've done some initial modelling with the home energy model. But we are working with the Future Homes Hub and modelling with the home energy model. But we are working with the future homes hub and government with the home energy model to make sure that we're involved and informing early doors and consulting on that to make sure that the end product that comes out and the software tool is suitable and usable and is realistic. So we're supporting on that.

Darren Evans: 33:15

Any early indications or any bits of information that you can give that may be useful for smaller house builders.

Danielle Michalska: 33:21

Not at the moment, no, not that we can share, but a lot of the SMEs are sitting on those groups with us. So we've made sure through the Future Homes Hub there's a representation across board Large developers, smaller SMEs, medium size.

Darren Evans: 33:32

For those that don't know what is the Future Homes Hub.

Danielle Michalska: 33:34

So that's an independent group that are kind of they sit between the industry and government to help support the dialogue between new regulations, changes that are happening and so so we've got a voice as an industry, but they're very independent as well. They'll feedback from both sides.

Darren Evans: 33:49

Danielle, I think we're now in a point where we can go to the demolition zone. Okay, we are now in the demolition zone and, danielle, you've created something here which I can see, and you can see more of than what those watching on YouTube will be able to see. So I'll describe it as a tower that has got a half arch, or an arch at the top of it, but it's just over, probably about a foot and a half high, I would say.

Danielle Michalska: 34:18

That's because, as far as my balancing skills could go go the height is related to.

Darren Evans: 34:23

What does it represent? I?

Danielle Michalska: 34:24

think probably a myth or misconception, particularly for females, that they think is that actually you can't be successful in a career and be a full-time mum and thrive in both professionally and personally. And you know, you often speak to people and I still get that feeling sometimes like am I actually doing well in both? Am I? Is one lapsing because the other one is is doing well? And I think that's a myth, that that needs to be busted, because as long as you work hard and you put your effort into everything, you will be successful in whatever you want to do, and that can be always around your career, your personal life, whether it's being a parent, whether it's. You know, often people, people like to work out and train. It could be lots of different things, but I think for me is you absolutely can be successful in your career and have a young family and it can all work. Don't get me wrong. You need a good supportive network and obviously a supportive business. I'm really fortunate that I do have that and have the flexibility. So for me that's my myth and the reason the tower is hiding behind and there's only the peak at the top.

Danielle Michalska: 35:27

It's something a lot of people always mention, but people don't actually see what goes on below. It's like the iceberg, you know, you only see the tip. You don't get to see the hard work and the effort that goes in, and I think that doesn't need to be missed either. You know, yes, I have been successful in my career and I'm also parenting at the same time. But people probably only just see, see the external of what's going on. They don't see the behind the scenes. You know the aftermaths of the morning breakfast, get ready, get out the door, um and I think for me that's what that represents is actually there's a lot going on in the background and people only see the the top end of. Oh, you know well, well, danielle's doing okay, or I've seen her here. Well, she's very successful in that. They don't see all the bad bits.

Darren Evans: 36:04

That's speaking kind of a chaotic element, that there is order in your life and there's chaos in your life. But people recognise and see the order but don't appreciate that there's a tonne of chaos underneath that, yeah, on a front-facing.

Danielle Michalska: 36:18

They probably think, oh, how is she out the house by seven o'clock and dressed and makeup and kids off at school and done all that? You've just not seen the mayhem that's gone on beforehand, you know, and that happens in in every household. People that say it doesn't they're telling a fib 100, 100.

Darren Evans: 36:35

The other thing as well. Just as I'm, I'm wondering there, um, as you speak, that there may be other women that are thinking, yes, I'd love to have that, I'd love to have what you're saying, but I just don't feel that I can have that, either, because I'm not quite sure what success looks like, or of something else. What would you, what would you say to that group?

Danielle Michalska: 36:55

Work out what it is that success means to you first and then work towards that, what it is that success means to you first, and then work towards that, and that's the little wins. You know, success doesn't necessarily mean a really high level job title and everything else I mentioned earlier. Mine is about being comfortable, being happy, enjoying my job, being present in both my personal professional life. So to me, that that is success and that means I've been really successful in what I do. And so find what it is that you deem success and work towards it. You know, go for it.

Danielle Michalska: 37:24

There's always going to be that element of doubt, and I think that is just the way a female mind is, is is made up. You know, I, with my first child, I was really worried because I was like I'm I'm pregnant, I've got to go on maternity leave, will they replace me? Will I find someone better? You know, I had the same thought process three years later with my second, and I didn't need to. I was with the same business, I knew they were supportive, I knew all of that, but it's just that innate within you.

Danielle Michalska: 37:46

You question it. Um, so don't? You know, be ballsy, be strong, believe in yourself and and just go for something you're not guaranteed tomorrow. Darren, you know, and I've learned that in the last months I lost my stepdad, and do you know what? It was very quick, it was very sudden, it wasn't expected. Life is what you make it. I'm trying really hard to take that view of don't be negative, try and see the positive in things, try and view them as actually, what can I do to put a better spin on that? So you've got to be positive.

Darren Evans: 38:18

I love that.

Danielle Michalska: 38:21

It's the little wins and they all mount up and actually when I look over my career, the things that I've done and achieved, both out of my comfort zone and doing things, you know, not in a million years would I've thought I would be sat speaking on a podcast or have the confidence to do it, because as much as I like to talk and I'm out going, I am an extrovert, I don't like being in front of people, I don't like being paraded or you know that's just kind of not me. So you know it's you grow, you grow and you learn and you take each day as it comes and you take the wins and and go for it.

Darren Evans: 38:50

Danielle, I think we can now destroy this myth. Oh yes, nice, with a kick of the right foot, the tower comes crumbling down. Great, yeah, I think. So I've got three girls and my oldest daughter her favorite phrase is boss woman and from what you've said, she definitely class you as a boss woman and that, to her means, is empowering. And it's like you know, I'm going to grab life by the horns and I'm going to go and live it and do my best and just ride with the way that I feel and question my doubts before I believe my doubts.

Danielle Michalska: 39:25

Yeah, and do you know what? That's really nice to hear, darren, because for me I always self-doubt. It's just a thing you do and you kind of work back round. And actually, if my daughter can grow up and think, do you know what? What was it? Boss woman, boss woman, that's what she called it. If my daughter grows up and says my mum's a boss woman, I'm a happy lady.

Darren Evans: 39:47

Danielle, last question for you what thing does the general public need to know and understand about the new build houses and the new build sector that you don't think that they quite fully get or understand at the moment? So someone outside of the industry they've got no experience in construction, in innovation, in net zero, any of that stuff, but what do you think?

Danielle Michalska: 40:10

that we are heavily regulated and I think more often than not we will get asked questions, particularly with the introduction of air source heat pumps. Well, I don't want that on the outside of my house. Why are we doing it? Because we have to. You know we don't have a choice um. One that's come up recently is around energy usage in homes and additional showers and whether customers can have them. You know customers don't understand that we are actually bound by a software tool that calculates things for us, so we have to comply with that um and the methods in which we get there, uh, are restricted. So definitely is understanding that we are a regulated industry ultimately, which I think they they often don't know daniel, it's been great, thank you really enjoyed it.

Danielle Michalska: 40:56

Thanks for coming. Hope I've not talked too much absolutely not you.

Darren Evans: 40:59

You talked just perfectly and it's been great uh, it's been great having you here yeah,