Darren Evans: 0:13

Yeah, so I d um I I just like I like the psychology of things, the how people overcome difficulty, hardship, faced with the challenge, yeah, how they approach it, what they do. Because most things you can approach it and can solve in some way, shape, or form. Maybe not you, but you can start and then someone else can take up the button and and solve it later.

Andy Hay: 0:42

Depending on where this goes, we might talk about this later. Yeah, so I'm gonna talk about it now. I was chatting to I was telling a story. What am I doing here? I'll I'll explain what I'll do. I was telling a story to uh um grads and uh apprentices and there was a general question that came out, Andy, what else would you say to us? What else would you do? Any other general advice? And I recounted to them a story when I was called up to I was at Adidas, and I was called up to I think it was the CEO's office, just uh I don't really know why, it was something, you know. And on his desk he had this block of wood and it was the shape of a toblerone bar, right? And it was quite interesting. And it had on the side that I could see, like it. He could see I was looking at it, he said, You want to know what that's about? I said, Yeah, he said, turn it over. Turn it over, he said, change it. Okay. He said, turn it over again. It said, deal with it. So he said, talk me through. And he said in any situation in life, there's only three things you can do. You can like something, which case throw yourself into it, grab it. If you don't like it, what can I do? I can change it. You take some agency, you do something about it, you own it. If you can't change it, what else can I do? You've gotta cope with it, you've got to deal with it. So f find a mindset, find a coping strategy. And if that doesn't work, it forces you back to, okay, well, maybe the maybe this isn't so bad as I thought. Maybe I can like this if I have a different mindset. And actually, especially if I I could change a bit of it. And it forces that, it forces you to go through that whole process. And what it also does, it gives, I found for me, it works because it gives me agency. It tells me, actually, I can do this. It's not, I'm not waiting for someone else to do something, and I'm not going to sit there and be the victim, own it, you know, those kind of things. So, yeah, funny, that's years and years ago, but I still, it still that has resonated with me throughout my career, those kind of things. I it's always what could I do? What can the people I'm with do? What can the team do to come on move this thing forward?

Darren Evans: 2:38

So, how then do you think that um that could be better taught within the industry that we're in? So we've both we're both leaders of sustainability consultancies effectively, with with Hollis. Yeah. What what is it what is it within there that we can do to try and help that message get through to the people that feel frustrated or feel disappointed by the state of the built environment when it comes to carbon emissions or or or so on? Because it feels like to me at the moment at times that there's an exasperation and that element of agency that you speak of. That there's a tendency to quite to give that up quite quickly, place that on government and say we need you to come in and save the day, or it's someone else's fault, or yeah, whatever it is. So it's so it's not any of those three things that you've mentioned, it's uh a point of finger.

Andy Hay: 3:37

Yes, exactly. It's an extraneous someone else's fixes. So, so if I may, uh a brief, a brief because what you're saying strikes a strong chord at the moment. Brief anecdote, and then what we can do about it. So I was at an event recently, and it was an event, it was a dinner for lots of the great and the good of the sustainability world. And my overriding sense when I left the evening, this was one of despondency. This was one of we used to be, we used to be the most important people, we used to be the most influential people in the industry, and we're not anymore. And there was a sense of, well, what we need to do is just hunker down, it'll come back. And I and there was a few of us discussing this. And well, yeah, maybe, but maybe actually, again, turning my toblarome bar, what would you what would turn this from a feeling of despondency into what could what could we do about it? And it led to a discussion said, well, maybe actually this could be the maturing of the sustainability drive. It could be maybe you could argue that there's been perhaps a little bit of froth or noise around it, not substantiated. And actually getting rid of that could be a good thing because now we can really focus on what really will make the difference, what really will reduce emissions, what really will, you know, reduce the amount of waste that we're producing. And it led to a, again, it just led to a okay, well, what would that look like? And it uh, you know, trying to turn this into a more positive approach and say, okay, well, let's it let's let's recognise that people buy or when they are looking to um move something forward from a sustainable perspective, there's a there's a there's a spectrum of needs. It could be the evangelical kind of yes, I'm doing this purely for the good of the planet, which is perfectly valid. So to the other end, which is, do you know what? I've just gonna tick some boxes because I want to I want planning permission. And it said, okay, well, there is somewhere between those two, there is a good commercial basis for this. So let's focus our efforts on that. Because even if we've lost some supporters at one end of the spectrum, let's let's really work this piece. So again, it so I think that was my sense that that was I think it was a right, perhaps this is the first time that this group has not been at the forefront, has not had all the plaudits coming at them and the resources coming at them. Okay, fine. So now how are we going to deal with it? And I think to answer your original question, what can we do about that? I think part of it is just going through it, is learning it and leaders encouraging that thought. I also think there's probably something at the other end, the the perhaps the more junior people in organizations, which is explaining these kind of basic um concepts of what agency is, taking control of it, framing the issue in the context of the environment, of the market, those kinds of things. It's that broader thinking rather than the narrow thinking that I suspect most of us start out with in our careers, don't we? We say, This is what I'm doing. I'm just in this. So, okay, well, what's the perspective on this? What's the context on this? Reframe this challenge you've got in within that context. So I do think there's a lot about that. We do a lot of that at work. One of the reasons I was having this conversation with our grads and our interns was precisely that. I want them to understand the context. I want them to be able to solve problems, not just deliver tasks.

Darren Evans: 6:52

Does that make sense? Absolutely, yeah. Or even just identify problems as well. That's what one of the things that I say in my organization is to identify a problem is not necessarily that skillful because it's so apparent to us. We're we're hardwired with our lizard brain, as it were, to kind of say here's a there's a risk here, there's a problem here, these are problems. But where the real value is, is to understand that problem in context and then what to do about that problem so that something better comes at the other end. Yeah.

Andy Hay: 7:24

I I gonna agree. One of the things that that um I found very useful actually is to, especially when you're with a group of people and some form of a team or a board or a committee or whatever, is it what exactly are we trying to solve for here? You know, it's that because but different people will come with a different, their different take on a problem. So actually, yes, let's define what we're trying to solve here. There's all these things that we could solve, but what's the core? What are we really trying to solve for here? And so I think that's again, that's a discipline. That's a discipline of of a uh the individual who's leading it or the individuals who are participating to get that clarity. Right. We've got the clarity what we're trying to solve for, and we'll park those others, we'll come back to solve for them. But once you've got that clarity, right, now let's turn into what what can we gonna do about this? But again, it comes back to a lot of a lot of that comes through the training people get earlier in their careers. It comes back to finding themselves in the situations where they have to deploy that kind of skill set. You know, if if all you do is put people into task-driven situations, guess what? That's what they will do. Put them into a situation where they've got to shape. Hang on, what am I doing here? This is a bit vague and a bit nebulous. I've got to shape what I'm gonna do. And I think people, I think people generally thrive in that. I agree.

Darren Evans: 8:41

How did you end up at Hollis, based on the conversation that we've just had earlier? It seems like you started, or at least at one point, worked at Adidas. So I did, yeah. A sports manufacturer, a sportswear manufacturer is very, very different from a uh a sustainability and um a consultancy that you're that you're in at the moment.

Andy Hay: 8:59

Yeah. Um, I'll try and do the condensed version. I so I'm an accountant by profession, we've talked about that. Uh, I always found accountancy something I could do for most rather than something I enjoyed. So my roles at added asset started out doing a bunch of financy type stuff, but I always found myself much more attracted to, and I'll come back to that later. Uh okay, well, how can I deploy my analytical skills and so on to in in other areas? Uh roll forward, I then joined Diagio as a finance and a finance role, but Diadio was the first company that said to me, fine, you've got this stuff covered, go and take a job in strategy. So that gave me a huge exposure to all of a sudden now I'm doing strategy and marketing on some of Diaggio's biggest brands. I happened to live in the States at the time as well. So um uh I've I've been lucky that various stages in my career people have taken a punt on me. People have said, you know what, there's some raw material here, you haven't got the orthodox background, but we think you can do this. And actually, you you'll bring a different perspective. We've got lots of other people already, some of that you'll bring a different perspective. From there, I uh was in the automotive industry and actually was CFO of a of a vehicle leasing company, but we were fundamentally selling finance, is what we were doing. So I found myself on the front foot again, selling the assets, even though I was the CFO. It was largely asset-backed finance. And then CBRE knocked on the door, have been there for a while, and said, that's kind of what we do, or we do something very similar to that. We, you know, we, on behalf of our clients, we buy assets, we fund them, we find, you know, we fit them out, et cetera, which is largely what we're doing in the automotive world. And the the fundamental difference was one was an asset that depreciated, typically a car, a vehicle, the other one which we hoped was tendencies more to appreciate. So again, huge kudos to CBRE. They were prepared to take a punt, someone outside of industry, and what they were looking for was someone that had a different skill set. They said, we can teach you everything you need to know about you know being a surveyor, but you bring a different skill set. You know, the finance helped, uh, my experience of running large team systems, processes, client-facing stuff. So that was it. Uh, and that got me into real estate where I've been, excuse me, for uh well, uh whatever, 20 years or so. And then Hollis kind of came knocking, said, you know, come and um come and help us uh uh run Hollis and grow Hollis, which is all I'm doing now. So that's a a shortened version of it. But I'll repeat, at various stages, what's been brilliant in that one, I something I try and do is people have taken uh taken that punt on me. People have said, okay, you haven't got the orthodox background to this, but we think it can be a success. And I think I've always benefited for benefited from individuals taking that view. Same with the appointment at Hollis, you know, the chairman and uh the founders and uh the group there said, Yeah, do you know what? This is the guy we think we can make this work. So yeah, interesting journey.

Darren Evans: 11:46

Interesting with that as well. It seems like you've taken a punt on another industry because there's been a few industries that you've been in, and just like an organization or a person will take a punt on you, surely that was that must work both ways, right? Yeah. Because you're going from something where you would have built up, yes, a core skill set which is transferable, but a certain level of um understanding, maybe even comfort, predictability, to then go back almost to uh this bottom of the of the learning curve, which then feels maybe like a hockey stick or a vertical. I don't know. I'm just I'm just guessing here.

Andy Hay: 12:28

Well now, yeah, and again, you you you make a very relevant point. Uh again, I another conversation I was having the other day, this this concept of changing lanes. You know, the I'm a firm, firm believer that both for the individual and for the organization, changing lanes is a good thing. Okay, so if it very if you look at what I just described to you, I've I'm an accountant that's now in general management via marketing. I'm a Brit that has lived and worked in Germany and in the US. Um I've started in uh sporting goods via FMCG, uh automotive to real estate. And at each stage, um, you're right, I've had to say, hang on, this is a bit of a left curve move. Um, not always an upward move, I'm honest. People have said move over here, it's a cyber basic move. But at each stage, and I I said this to a group I was with the other day, every single one of those gave me something new. So you've throw yourself into it, trust, don't, don't, don't do it blindly, understand what the risks are, understand the exposures for me and for the people I'm going to be working with, um, and then take a balanced view. But generally, well, they've all worked out, but every single one of them, I've learned something. I've, you know, I think the the point you're making, going in and learning to deal with the discomfort of this isn't an industry I know. So what does that do? It makes you a bit more resilient. It makes you more comfortable. Okay, I don't know everything. So how might I improve my knowledge? You know what? I might have to ask a few questions of people, you know, I might have to trust people more while I'm getting up to speed. And I think, and there's of course there's times when it's hurt and it's not been without its pain, but back to resilience, back to uh the what it's made, what I believe it's made me, and I think companies can deploy this. I think it makes it has made me and makes companies more resilient, it makes them more flexible. Guess what? I think you companies get better decisions if the people making them haven't only worked in one particular area, but have worked in other areas that could be in different functions in Hollis. Um, my COO at the moment at Hollis, you know, he's a surveyor. Okay, that's what he does. He's been client-facing, understands all this stuff, have done his time delivering dilapidations, that kind of stuff. But you can absolutely see the raw material there, his approach. I thought he'd make a great COO. So now he's my COO, you know, and and and as a result, I've now got a COO that takes decisions based on their understanding of client needs, delivering the services, being a fee earner, all those things. And I think the company's the better for it. And there are plenty of other examples of that. And I think that's I think that's kind of part of my job. I think it's part of the job of the leaders to do that. So that's both to give people the individual opportunity to change lanes, but that the company benefits from all of that as well.

Darren Evans: 15:28

So as you've gone from one industry to another, what formula have you adopted or what advice would you be able to give to other people that may want to take that step, but are unsure of the process to go through for them to do their own due diligence to understand where that risk is? Because no one wants to make a shift and realise actually it's all come crumbling down. I now need to move out of my home, or these all these fears that can surround people in in in changing lanes.

Andy Hay: 16:03

Yeah. Um there's a there's a few things in that I guess that come to mind. Um I think to some extent, um the people who are you're talking to about the shift. Do I do I trust this person? Do I feel that even when it doesn't go right, there's still a relationship there, as in, you know, because it won't be perfect, that's the point. But do I have I got a good enough relationship with this person, or do I feel positive enough about this person who's asking me or who's suggesting I make the change that, do you know what, we'll find a way? You know, I think there's that's I think that's a large part of it. I think um part of it, so that's a that's a bit of your D D. I think um part of it is also understanding what what are the things that you enjoy doing? And by that I don't mean being a surveyor, being an accountant. It means a deeper. What are the, you know, when are you at your best? When are you, when is the is the radar at its most alert? Is it when you're standing up presenting in front of a hundred people? Or actually, is it no, solving a problem, locked away, it's midnight, but I'm gonna solve this before I go home? You know, it's is it that? And I think it's understanding those things. What are the things that really get you excited? And will this new opportunity give you more opportunity to spend more time in those situations? I think that's another, it's just a basic DD. I think there is something about also be brave, do be bold, and ask yourself, look, what's the downside? I could do this, would really, this is gonna give me another string to my bow, it's gonna give me another functional skill set, it's gonna make me more resilient, I'm gonna get a whole new uh exposure to new ideas, new tools, new techniques. That's brilliant. What's the downside? You know what? It doesn't work. Can I sell to potentially a future employer what I've done? Can I say, do you know what? I was bold, I took a risk. Here's why I thought it was a worth one worth taking. I learned from it. You know, my experience, that's a good story. It's a good um shows a good part of your character or attribute to be able to that future employers or people you're gonna work with might find attractive.

Darren Evans: 18:12

I like that. One of the things I'm wondering now is when it comes to uh problem solving. So you made reference to uh this um earlier on in the conversation is what is it that we're optimizing for effectively? So I'm just wondering now what it is that you see within the marketplace at the moment that is maybe the top problem that you or we need to optimize to try and solve, or maybe the top three problems.

Andy Hay: 18:42

Okay. Um so there's a few, there's a few things. I touched upon one in the other day. I think the whole sustainability agenda is facing a bit of turbulence. Okay, so that is clearly a problem. It's clearly presenting challenges for the individuals who work in it, what's my future, but more importantly for you know the real estate, the construction industry. Hang on, is is this are we walking away from this completely or or or not? Do we still believe in this?

Darren Evans: 19:10

So walk through those those changes as you see them. Sorry, not the changes, walk through those um problems as as you see them at the moment. Um well I think for both the people that work in the industry as well as the the whole market itself.

Andy Hay: 19:24

Um well, let's start, let's start at the market. I think there is a um I think and it's not just the North American um, you know, the the the current um government over there uh that's driving these. I think there's there's another, there's uh there are other dynamics at play. But that's the most obvious one. And therefore, the extent to which um that dynamic challenges some of the things that have just been taken as red around sustainability, around the benefits that accrue to society, to our industry, to occupiers of buildings, visitors to buildings, all those benefits I think are now effectively being challenged. So, but again, the the the the optimist in me says, okay, fine. This is just another hurdle that we're being challenged. Let's we're if we've got the conviction of it, then let's make the case. Actually, by all means challenge us, here's why this does still matter. So but I think that I think I think there are one of the problems is just that perpetual challenge at the moment. I also think there is something around um, as I say, the shift for the individuals, the shift from, you know, go back not that long ago, several years, there was it was it was the these the individuals with the skill set and sustainability were in such huge demand, huge demand. And there was a real shortage, and as soon as, you know, you needed someone, you had to get into the market really, really quickly, or the individuals you wanted were gone. And the pay. Well, yeah, exactly. The pay and packages. And now I think for those individuals, it's a different environment now. So there's a on a personal level, there's okay, we've got to get used to that. So I think that's another one of them. I think more broadly, there is an uncertainty, and this is not just a sustainability, there is an uncertainty, therefore, about what the future is, what's this gonna look like. But again, back to where I started, I think part of what we can do is help shape that. Okay, well, let's let's us take some agency. Let's just not just wait and hope and see what other people, the extraneous forces, are gonna do. Well, what's our role in this? We're the people that know more about this than anyone else. We're being challenged at the moment, and we're being asked to justify why we're taking certain actions. Courage of our conviction. Come on, let's do this. So I think I think there's something about us putting some more um or filling the void where there was where there is this kind of um uh uncertainty, trying to put a bit more certainty around it. You know, so I think there's something around there. I think more broadly, some of the challenges are just for, especially for the real estate industry, more broadly, there is just this, and it's even for the economy, there is just an uncertainty. There is whether it's because of geopolitically what's going on, whether it's because of I'm talking from in London, from the UK. We've got another period of several months now. We're ahead of a budget. So there's all the vacuum to be filled there. Oh, the government's gonna do this, the government do that, what will happen if. So you've got the uncertainty there, more uncertainty on top of all the uncertainty we've had for the last few years. You know, was it 18 months ago? We had the new government in. Well, then there was the period of what's she going to do in her first budget, what are they gonna do? There was the period, six months, well, probably way more than that. Well, everyone was expecting the new government to come into more uncertainty. All of this leads to decisions taking longer, investors deciding, well, I might just hold on to this for now, you know, not going ahead with the investment. So I think I think there is this general, one of the main problems that that affects our industry is this uncertainty. So it feels just as if we're moving off and things are looking good and positive, ah, and it's all the brakes are on again, stop, halt, you know. And I think that stop-start nature creates an issue for companies, I mean economies, companies, but individuals as well. You know, we want to grow a particular part of our business. Well, hang on, do we know that's gonna still be there? You know, is that growth still gonna be there in 12 months' time? Um I'm by nature an optimist. I believe though if if not that, then this over here, this will be the growth area, you know. Um, but that I think that's a some of the main uh some of the main problems that are ahead of us. Yeah. And all that filters down to the individuals. Okay, well, you know, what does that mean for my future? What does it mean? Should I continue to invest and continue for a career in sustainability? Or maybe I should maybe it's time for me to change lanes. Maybe it's time for me to but I can always come back to sustainability later, but you know, maybe I'll try something different. And that's not necessarily a negative thing, you know?

Darren Evans: 23:54

I think it's it's definitely a new industry. Yeah. Really, really, really young industry. When I set my company up 2006, and you go back in your mind to what was going on in the world in 2006, and no one was interested in sustainability like they are now. No. So there's been a huge shift from then to now. Yeah. People weren't using words like uh carbon reduction, no, carbon counting, yeah, um, net zero. They just they just weren't phrases that were going on. And I remember when I quit my job um and set this company up, everybody thought I was bonkers because I was doing this. Like, Aaron, what are you doing? You've got three kids. This is you know, irresponsible. What are you doing? But I think, you know, and we've discussed this before. Um, the camera started rolling, um, is that just because something's going well doesn't mean to say that it's not gonna dip and have a period of retraction or difficulty or even discovery. And just because something's going really poorly doesn't mean to say that there's not going to be a recovery and things aren't going to improve. And I think that when we're in whichever moment we're in, naturally it seems difficult for most people to be able to see another um reality or another future, which is different from the one that they're presenting at the moment. Yeah. And I remember there was this big shift. So going from 2006, there was a big shift in people's wages. So my staff wage bill just shot up over the course of a couple of years because of that very point that you're talking of, the the uh there was just a like a grab, like a people grab. We need this person, and the way to get them in was just to give them just huge amounts of money to to persuade them to come in. And yeah, it was eye watering some of the stuff that was that was going on. But I think that kind of going back to this point where things are being challenged, and you mentioned governments and uh and and and and so on, but I think that this is a good thing. The reason I think it's a good thing is because when you're challenged with something, you're forced then to look into that topic uh in a with a lot more detail, yeah, a lot more depth, and come back and articulate either a story or an angle or facts that enable you to grow the the whole industry or that line of thinking and to and to have it developed. So maybe it's a really bad example, but I remember uh listening to a story when um the the locomotive or the steam train was first created. Yeah. And at that time, the science or the belief was that if the human went more than 30 miles an hour outside, that they wouldn't be able to breathe, and so they'd suffocate because of how fast 30 miles an hour was back then. Obviously, we know that that's not true, but that needed to be tested, that theory needed to be tested. And I so I think that the same is with sustainability and the way that we treat um the earth, the way that we treat each other, the way that we treat businesses and buildings and all the rest of it. I think to have that challenge just enables us to come up with actually we thought this, but that but it's slightly different, and this is it, which then helps this discovery of what the truth is. But in order for us to get to the truth, we need to be challenged on an opinion.

Andy Hay: 27:26

No, I I again um I agree. It's uh I think no, it's when we look through the history of humanity and civilization, it it's been a a series of challenges. Oh, what are we gonna do? Okay, well, let's think about it. We we adapt, you know, fundamentally, you know, that's what evolution's about. You know, we adapt, we learn, we change. I mean I'm back to my tobler end. All right, do I like this? No. Okay, well, what can I do? What can I do to change it? What can we do to change? And I so I I agree completely. And I think these things are not meant to be easy. You said it, it's a new industry. Okay, so guess what? This is the first bit of turbulence. But we'll come through it because we have the convictions. We know we'll we'll have to change our approach. There'll be some things we'll say, do you know what? That part doesn't matter quite so much anymore, but this part is really what matters. And and I I think that's what that's what we will have to do. And I think I don't doubt that we'll come out of this, and it will be a sharper, um, cleaner set of you know services. I think I suspect we'll get to the point where uh we will clearly get harder commercial edge around it. I think that's it. Um I mean we're pretty good at finding ways to you know create value as uh you know humans you know generally are quite good at doing that. I believe we will do that around this. Um, but it's it's not unhealthy to be challenged. It's not at all. So um, yeah, it's look, there's a bit of turbulence. We'll go through it. Um we'll come out to your side. I'm a great believer also in a pendulum swing. A pendulum swing. So what today is really, really unpopular, who knows? Who knows pendulums will swing back. I mean, I was chatting to someone yesterday who'd been in our industry for a long time and was talking about how the just the nature of their portfolio, the shape of their portfolio changed. And uh he was saying when he started, it was over 20 years ago, the portfolio that he was responsible for had something like 2% of industrial logistics. Well, now he says it's over 30%. And now no one would have thought of that. No one would have thought, you know, it was sheds and all this kind of stuff. But things changed. The environment, the context changed, which gave rise to that demand. And you know, everyone said, right, there's an opportunity here. How can we create some value at it? And retail's kind of slightly gone the other way. I know first when I came into real estate 20 years ago, you know, retail was huge and it was the one of the most important um aspects. Classic. Now it still is, but absolutely it's gone through, especially over the last you know, five, ten years, has gone through some challenges. There's some changes, driven largely by societal changes, things like COVID and all that kind of stuff. But guess what? The smarter you go out there, talk to smarter retailers, okay, they've adapted, they've come up with new ways of doing it. And um, yeah, so I think I think we there will be every part of the industry, every part of um society goes through these challenges and generally comes out stronger.

Darren Evans: 30:31

What I'm picking up from this conversation is that change is necessary for growth, change is necessary in life. And someone said to me some years ago is the only thing that doesn't change is dead. Oh yeah, yeah. And when I think about it, it's like, well, yeah, actually, or you probably could get a little bit um uh picky and say, well, you know, even dead things change because it, you know, it decomposes in it. But anyway, you know, the I think the principle is right, is that as living humans, we need to change and we need to develop and evolve. And the industry that we are in whereby sustainability is that there needs to be change in that, and that needs to evolve, and that includes people that have come from an accountancy background or from a retail background or or other backgrounds that maybe aren't uh even closely connected to buildings.

Andy Hay: 31:24

Agree. I was chatting to um again, uh it was in our Birmingham office, and I was chatting to uh a group of the people from there, and uh this particular individual had recently joined us after over a decade being a teacher. So, okay, well, talk me through that. The experience this individual had, the maturity they had, understanding the chaos of a classroom, putting some structure around that, the ability to deal with it when when we all come to work and we know generally people are going to behave okay. Yeah, yeah, be polite. It's not the way it is with a bunch of you know young primary school children, you know, they haven't learned all the norms that haven't. But but it's fantastic that we've now got this individual in Hollis. I mean, I am very proud of the fact that I didn't do it, but the the people who gave her the chance, you know, in the Boeing office, they what a great decision. I'm proud that we can do that. But actually, I'm more and more than that, I'm convinced it's gonna be a success. It's gonna be brilliant. And that and that that's just an example of the whole change, bringing people into the industry from outside, they bring a different skill set. They will differ bring a different approach to problems. Going back to different approach to challenges. Okay, so if we have more of the same thinking on these challenges, guess what? We're not gonna get through it. Some different thinking with people from from outside the industry or from different um with a different approach, different tools, different techniques, you know, we've got more chance of getting through these challenges. So um it it's it's a very practical. This is it sounds sometimes almost philosophical, this discussion, and parts of it, I guess, are, but but it they have very practical, pragmatic applications. You know, right, let's go and get some from outside. What it what skill set is it we're looking for? Are we looking for deep analytics? Are we looking for management of large groups of people? Are we looking for people? What industries have adopted technology? There's one. What industries have adopted technology at a greater rate than ours? Because I sus I just don't think we're you I don't think you'd call our industry bleeding edge. Probably not even leading edge. Nowhere near. But it's it's it's okay. Well, what industries have adopted, and I don't mean dabbled in it and tried it, but but seriously adopted technology. And um yeah, that well, let's go and get some people from that industry. Let's at least get some some from those industries. You know, that's the kind of they very, very pragmatic uh applications, you know, that's what will make the difference.

Darren Evans: 33:56

Andy, it's been great having you on the podcast. I've appreciated your wisdom, your uh your perspective. And I think just that last point that you made there when it comes to technology, this is one of the passions that's kind of deep in my heart. Uh and it's and especially when you look at the um area of of social media, you look at the area of things like the beauty industry, um, and the way that they've adopted technology to tell a story, to position something of of high value and something that's really, really desirable. Yeah. And the way that they've incorporated technology in that, I think that there's a huge amount that the construction industry can can learn, but the lessons uh can be borrowed or pinched or or looked at from other industries and then just applied in uh in our own. And um, yeah, I I just want to end on that or end on that note, just hoping that this is something that that Hollis is going to do, and those people that are listening to this podcast today are uh are going to think about what they can do in specifically in the technology space to help share and tell a better story around sustainability in buildings.

Andy Hay: 35:06

I think those that don't won't be in the conversation much longer. I think it's as simple as that.

Darren Evans: 35:11

But no, I've enjoyed it as well. Thank you very much, Darren. Appreciate it.