Laura Baron: 0:00

There was a report that was released this year by a group of different organisations, including Arup. I think were involved Ellen MacArthur Foundation and the World Green Building Council, and they brought out this report that said that by 2050, we need to have reduced embodied carbon in our construction sector by 99%. There is nothing we're doing currently at the moment in the construction sector that looks like what we need it to look like in 2050. And by 2030 2030, I think it said around 60% reduction, which we're nowhere near, and so it's kind of just understanding where, how, what does that look like? 99% reduction in embodied carbon for our construction sector? It doesn't look like what we've seen.

Darren Evans: 0:41

Let's go back to when you were really young, Laura, really really young. I'm talking kind of below the age of 10. What was life like for you back then, and how do you think that that has led you to where you are now?

Laura Baron: 0:54

Yeah, it's an interesting question because I so I grew up in North Wales, in very rural North Wales, near a town called Mould which is not as bad as it sounds, but it's in Flintshire and a really beautiful part of the world and I had a very privileged upbringing. My parents were very happy and considerate and thoughtful and I have two sisters and so, yeah, I didn't have no kind of tales of woe, thankfully, which is a real privilege, and I think possibly the intriguing thing about where I've come to in my life is that actually my sisters have, through completely different routes, all come to an area that they're now working in, a similar environmental, slanted industries, which I think must link back to some element of where we grew up and the kind of ethos that my parents instilled in us, which is quite interesting, I think, in what way?

Darren Evans: 1:43

So talk to me about that a bit more. So my what ethos did they instil in us, which is quite interesting, I think. In what? In what way? So talk to me about that a bit more so my ethos did they just instill?

Laura Baron: 1:48

well, I think we spent a lot, of a lot of our childhood just outside, all the time yeah we had a huge garden we were just in the middle of, surrounded by fields, so we'd go out and just play in the fields and just disappear and it was quite a feral upbringing really, but in a good way, and I kind of so and so, as a result of that, you think that that's why your, your sisters, are also involved in did you say the in construction as well?

Laura Baron: 2:10

not no. Interestingly so my older sister is an ecologist for national trust and in wales, and so you know she works a lot with rural farmers and the national trust's land managers and how to make their lands more sustainable and looking at kind of peat restoration and things like that carbon sequestration of the land. And my younger sister works for Manchester University for their Sustainable Materials Innovation Hub, I think and so looking at how we can make the materials that we use in packaging and construction materials and things making them more sustainable and circular.

Darren Evans: 2:40

That's a really broad role. It sounds that she's got at the university there, fantastic. So, talking specifically on the values that you felt that you feel sorry that you got from your parents, what would you say that they would be if you were to pick three important ones?

Laura Baron: 2:54

Oh, okay, so I think I always remember my this is going to sound. I don't know how this is going to sound, but so my mum was mad into recycling.

Laura Baron: 3:02

Okay to sound but so my, my mum was mad into recycling, okay, and I always remember because where, because of where we lived, they didn't do a recycling pickup and so we had to have everything kind of organized that we then put in the back of the car and then take to the supermarket and do all that, like in the bottle banks and the. And it was just, it was an event, it was an activity that we did when we went shopping, and so you do, you wrap the two together, so it was a thing, rather than just not really thinking about where stuff's going. And I think I do think that that she probably would laugh at me saying that, but I think there's probably something in there. But yeah, I think they've always just been kind of very encouraging and said you know, there's nothing that you can't do, just get on and do it and work hard.

Darren Evans: 3:38

So yeah, so I've got two from that. I'm going to push you for the third one. So one is recycling, the other one is you can do anything that you put your mind to yeah what would you say? Would you say there's a third one there?

Laura Baron: 3:48

will be. I think there's probably always been something from them both around a broader appreciation for the world outside of where we were, yeah, and so they were always very encouraging of us going traveling and experiencing other cultures and other and talking to people and kind of understanding that there is more to the world and to different individuals than just what we know kind of within our own kind of isolated community yeah, that's.

Darren Evans: 4:16

That's really interesting, isn't it? That there's more to the world than the mold in well? Exactly, yeah which, which is great I've never been to, I've never actually heard of it, but it sounds like it's in a very green spot.

Laura Baron: 4:27

It is, yeah, so well, now you're a football fan, aren't you?

Darren Evans: 4:31

I do like football.

Laura Baron: 4:32

So it's not that far from Wrexham, okay, and it's about half an hour 20 minutes from Wrexham.

Darren Evans: 4:37

Okay.

Laura Baron: 4:39

And it's a market town. It's a market town. It's very famous for its farmer's market, but it is surrounded by kind of rolling hills and the Cluidian Valley and things like that.

Darren Evans: 4:47

Good and so growing up then did you travel much on holidays as a family.

Laura Baron: 4:51

We went camping a lot, yep, lots of camping Again, kind of just. I really remember when I was I must have been like 14 or 13 or 14 or something my cousin he who was older took a gap year and it was the first time I'd heard what a gap year was. And he I saw him after he'd been and he was talking about his time and what he did. And he went to Africa and I was like and that was the only thing that I knew when people said, what do you want to do when you grow up? And I was always like I want to travel, I want to go and see different places. And so, yeah, I just vividly remember that. And so I was very, again, very privileged to be able to take some time before going to university to go and travel and then, whilst I was in university, just jumped to every opportunity.

Darren Evans: 5:31

Where did you go?

Laura Baron: 5:31

So I spent some time in India, some Thailand and Southeast Asia when I was just before university and then after my first year I went to South America and went to Venezuela, colombia and Ecuador, to South America and did went to Venezuela, colombia and Ecuador and then I did took, took a break between jobs after I'd done my part three so part of being an architect and went back to South America for three months.

Darren Evans: 5:53

And what did you say that you, what would you say that you learnt from your traveling experiences? If you kind of to condense that down into a bite-sized, bite-sized bit of advice or a bit of learning, what would you?

Laura Baron: 6:05

I think that it's. It strikes me that everybody, everyone is different, but actually everybody does kind of care about the same thing. Everyone wants their family to be well and safe and, you know, want to be able to provide what provide sufficiently for their family, and I think that that's universal and so it's kind of finding finding common threads, threads of how you can talk to people about issues that they might seem to have a different opinion on, I think is quite interesting. These experiences that you have had have clearly shaped who I am today. But I'm kind of also aware of the fact that, because now I personally don't really like flying for long distances and definitely don't for kind of shorter trips, but that, and that my son, who's four, is going to have a very different kind of journey to get to the same age as me as I've had what?

Darren Evans: 7:01

what do you think that could look like for him? I don't know.

Laura Baron: 7:03

I'm hoping like it's, I'm hoping that it is positive, but I think it's going to be a very different world, isn't it? I think it's unavoidable and I think that there's a lot. You know, when I was in my early 20s, there was very little to stress about, and I know that as a 20 year old, you shouldn't really be that stressed about things. But globally, that with there's so many different things going on, that I think could potentially cause quite a lot of stress for young people. It's a yeah, how that how that manifests in an individual's kind of journey through to adulthood is will be seen, I suppose.

Darren Evans: 7:36

But yeah, I think you're very different to mine there's been a number of reports out fairly recently that have spoken about climate anxiety and how that shows up in the younger generation. Is that something that you've experienced? Me personally yes, regularly how does that show up for you?

Laura Baron: 7:51

so I I think it just is, unfortunately, a product of my role. I opted when I took this job to think about this on a daily basis, to talk about it on a daily basis. I have to do research and read reports that are really depressing, and so kind of when you're absorbing all of that information.

Laura Baron: 8:09

It's kind of hard not to. But I think I also recognize that for me that anxiety is a bit is a privilege, because I don't have any other greater threats on my life right now. So you know, I'm not being evicted from my home, I'm not fleeing a war like war-torn country. So it is a privilege for me to be able to concern myself with that threat, which doesn't may not seem as immediate to some people, but to me it does feel like it is kind of already here.

Darren Evans: 8:33

How do you manage that personally, and what advice would you give for other people that will be listening and watching? I also feel that that, because this is a real thing, right, it's been recognized by medical professionals as a real thing.

Laura Baron: 8:46

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And a part of me kind of thinks like am I weird for being anxious about this, or are you weird for not being anxious about this? And it's kind of it is strange to me sometimes how some people are not affected in the same way. But I think for me, the greatest thing that I was able to do was to take action in my own life and in my professional life, and I think that is the only way that I can get through. It is by turning it into something more positive and powerful. So I think joining groups or finding people that are like-minded and also going through a similar thing or kind of similarly passionate about the subject I is really, really important and has definitely helped me. I think. The thing that I always find quite amusing so my partner doesn't work in construction, he doesn't work in sustainability, but he talks about sustainability as if it's my hobby okay, and.

Laura Baron: 9:35

I kind of go. I would rather be doing talking about something else, like I feel like it's a necessity rather than a hobby. But I can see why he thinks that, because it does infiltrate every part of my life. You know, it makes it. It informs decisions I make about presents that I buy for people or where we go on holiday. You know what we do on our time off and things. So I can see why he thinks that. But it's not, it's not a hobby.

Darren Evans: 9:57

I would rather probably be doing something, something else so we can come on to hobbies in a moment, but I'm just wondering how that shows up in your relationship, because it seems as though he doesn't struggle with climate anxiety or feel anxious about the climate from what you're saying.

Laura Baron: 10:22

I think he does just by default of living with me, but they can do as individuals and don't necessarily feel the weight of responsibility in the same way that me. Now, because I have this role and because I have, you know, I always feel like anything that I do is never going to be enough to completely shift an entire industry. But there are things that I can be doing. So if I'm not doing them, I'm like, well, maybe I should have had that conversation differently or maybe I shouldn't do that.

Darren Evans: 10:44

But yeah, I think he he cares about it and he does worry about it, but not to the same extent it's interesting that you've touched on that point as well around wanting to do something but not knowing what to do, or even where to start.

Darren Evans: 10:56

I wonder if you have any thoughts again for people that are listening or watching, of people that feel this way, because I think that a lot of shame can also be attached to that. I know I should be or I know I could be, but I don't know what. Yeah, where do I start?

Darren Evans: 11:11

I'm overwhelmed, then I think the the the story can then be I need to beat myself up, because that means I'm a bad person, because everyone else is getting it right and I'm getting it really wrong, which then is a really negative place to be as well. So what advice would you give or suggestions would you give for someone that's suffering or feeling that they're caught in that loop?

Laura Baron: 11:31

Yeah, yeah, it's a really good question, I think. Firstly, nobody's getting it right at the moment, and that's fine. We don't need everybody to be perfect, we need people to just be better.

Laura Baron: 11:40

Secondly, I think there's something in recognising that you're part of a system, we're all part of a system and our sector, our industry, is part of a bigger system and that system is fundamentally broken and there's only so much we can influence that. And so you almost have to kind of work from your sphere of influence of OK well, this is my life, this is how I can live differently or make decisions differently or have different conversations, and I think that's the best place to start how I can live differently or make decisions differently or have different conversations. And I think that's the best place to start, and a lot of it is conversations, because the more you talk, people will think that it's easy to think that you're on your own and you're the only person that feels this way, but actually a lot of people will share those same anxieties and thought processes and actually the more you talk about it, the more people will realize oh, we all feel like this. Let's all do something together. Because it's much more powerful if you can do something collectively rather than as an individual.

Laura Baron: 12:29

And I think the bigger impact is when you have those conversations in your work environment and not being scared to challenge the people that you're working with and challenging the people that are making decisions on your behalf, and that's where I think you can have more power within your professional life as well as your personal, and I think there's also you know there's there's always things you can do, you know, when you're making decisions about voting and shopping, all of those kind of things. But it has to be within your own, what you're comfortable with, what you can afford to do and what you've got time and headspace for, because you've got to kind of remember that your own personal mental health is also important.

Darren Evans: 13:04

I really like that advice. What I've taken from what you've said and correct me if I've misunderstood but what I've taken from what you said is that perfection is the enemy of progression and what we're looking at is progression. You can't do everything, so don't try and start from what you can control and what you can affect, and also be grateful about that, because there's always lots of things around that are not ideal and that we can be ungrateful for. But for your own sanity, well-being and energy, if you're grateful, that's going to put you in a better position.

Laura Baron: 13:36

Absolutely. You put it much better than I did.

Darren Evans: 13:38

That's what you said, but that's what I've taken from it. So thanks for that. I think that's a really good place to start, because we all are in pursuit of perfection. I think we all are in pursuit of perfection, I think, but but I mean you didn't use those exact words, but perfection really can be a a great showstopper for progress yeah, yeah, and I have conversations a lot where it's like, oh well, we're not going to be able to achieve that, so what's the point in trying?

Laura Baron: 14:02

and actually now we're at the point where I get a lot of people saying, well, you know, why are you bothering? Because it's you know, the world's already in a mess. But actually there's levels of mess, isn't there? It's kind of like it could be worse. Real, real like extinction, and where we are now and we want to stay as close to you know what we've got and what we know now as possible.

Darren Evans: 14:30

So any decisions we can make, any reductions we can make, make, anything we can do to improve our environment positively, is all stopping us on that road to total destruction and extinction when I was younger, my mum would use a phrase of by small and simple things, great things happen, and I think that that's a thing that I've at least tried to live my life by is stick with the small things. They're really really simple, do them consistently and you'll be surprised how how great things will end up. You know in the end and I think that that's that same principle, isn't it that if more people did really really small things consistently, then we actually don't know the change that that would make yeah, and I think there's like almost a domino effect as well.

Laura Baron: 15:05

People. People have that mentality of, oh well, they're doing that, so maybe you know that's not so hard or maybe that's not going to have a negative impact on my life, I think. I think a lot of the talk around sustainability and climate is is around what people have to give up or what sacrifices people have to make, and actually, the more people that can prove that it's not, it's actually you're making things better, you can be improving your life. You know, not driving as many cars will be better for people's health as well as the environment. You know, there's there's there's always two sides to it, I think, and it doesn't always have to be negative.

Darren Evans: 15:37

So how have you seen things change in the industry since you have started at university to where we are now, specifically around the, the way that we treat buildings and how that interlinks with sustainability, how that interlinks with climate what, what changes have you seen?

Laura Baron: 15:55

yes, it's a really good question because there's been loads of different tipping points, I guess and think I think so. When I was in university, you got taught and this is, I think, quite typical of architectural education you get taught how to design, but not necessarily how to be an architect, and I think it's.

Darren Evans: 16:09

What do you mean by that? Because there's going to be lots of people that aren't architects. I'm not an architect, so I don't.

Laura Baron: 16:14

Okay, so that means so, if I think well, definitely when I went to university in Cardiff. It's a brilliant school. It's got a very good reputation for architecture and I really enjoyed it. I made some friends for life there, but it teaches you it's almost like an art degree in the sense that you're, you're taught how to have an idea, how to have a concept, how to develop it, but it doesn't if you're building. It doesn't stand up, it doesn't necessarily matter, because it's all hypothetical if you build.

Laura Baron: 16:39

If you're building is going to cost 70 trillion pounds, it doesn't really matter, because it's not. It's not real and so you're kind of you're. It's removed from reality in that when you become an architect in practice and this is partly why you do part three so for anyone who doesn't know to become an architect, you have three parts this is the traditional way of doing it, but there is apprenticeships.

Laura Baron: 16:59

You can do it slightly differently. You do part one, which is essentially a bachelor's degree, part two, which is a master's, and part three, which is a diploma, but in practice. And so the part three is where you're kind of learning about contracts and insurance and things like that. But the thing that you don't necessarily learn in university is how to manage the project and how to kind of work to budgets, how to make sure that it meets building regulations, and you know there's so much technical input needed that you don't I don't know. I wasn't taught about it in university.

Laura Baron: 17:30

And so coming and working in practice, you're already loaded with extra information. When you're in university you are taught around sustainable design and you know orientation of a building and passive shading and all of those kind of different kind of environmental design principles, but then when you get into practice I certainly found is that you completely forget all of those because you're focused on budget and building regs and liability and all of those really important, serious things and so environmental design kind of gets sort of fades away. And I think that's that's a problem for my generation of architects, where you've kind of got, don't you have that disconnect between what you learn at university that it was good practice but you're out of practice, from being in practice. Lots of practices there, but, and then I think so there's that kind of journey anyway and disconnect.

Laura Baron: 18:16

But when I was working I used to work for an architect who worked mainly in housing so affordable housing for local authorities and housing associations and I was working on a project. For I think four, four years of my career was all just working full time on this one project which is a new build housing project in Thamesmead in London, and we were partway through construction. We poured the slabs, put the foundations in and Grunfeld happened, we had to redesign all of the external wall envelope to a different thickness for different installation and things and that really shook me that whole event as an architect working in housing to see that tragedy and the way that's played out since, and I think that's had a huge knock-on effect to our industry in general in a positive way or in a negative way.

Laura Baron: 19:00

I think it's. It's hard to say in in a I don't, I don't see any of it positive, okay, but it's, it was necessary.

Darren Evans: 19:07

I'm not talking about the event that's happened, that being positive or negative. I'm talking about the aftermath of it.

Laura Baron: 19:13

I suppose what I'm getting at is what it has exposed in our industry is not positive, but it was necessary to get there. It's been, yeah, I think. For me, the thing that's come out of it that's been less useful is the insurance issue and fire safety, because, particularly from a sustainability point of view, it's making timber construction really difficult and that's a more sustainable form of construction. And so there's all of those kind of knock on effects, and you know, grenfell wasn't made of wood but it's kind of had that effect in a way that makes it more challenging to build a sustainable building, in a way that makes it more challenging to build a sustainable building.

Darren Evans: 19:49

So are you saying, then, that, as a result of Grenfell, that things have been exposed that wouldn't have been exposed any other way, or it's?

Laura Baron: 20:00

difficult to see how it would have been exposed. Yeah, I think I don't know whether or not it would have been exposed any other way, but it's the whole. I don't know if you listened to any of the inquiry, but there was a podcast about the inquiry, which really like.

Laura Baron: 20:11

So at the time my, my boss made us all listen to it and I'm really glad he did, but at the same time it's really hard, but he but that kind of showed just this culture within the construction sector of construction sector, of blaming somebody else for something that you were supposed to be responsible for and that is toxic and it's, I think it's.

Laura Baron: 20:29

It's not necessarily fixed it, but it certainly highlighted to me how damaged our sector is in certain areas. And I think also the other thing that's it's highlighted which again may I don't know what positive outcome it's had yet, but it might in time is the around kind of performance certificates and as an architect you specify products, you get sent a certificate that says it's suitable for this location and you kind of you specify it on that grounds. What what grandfather highlighted was that's worthless piece of paper in some respects and so it doesn't lock in that design, does it?

Darren Evans: 21:06

yeah, so just kind of speaking about this in terms of the process, so the architect would specify not just the material but the build-up of that material within the larger envelope, yeah, and then when that gets down to the contractor and the subcontractor so the men and women that are on the ground actually putting these things together, and then the people that are deciding what to buy, they don't go back to what the architect has specified and in every single case say we're going to stick with that, because someone comes up with a really good idea that says if we change it, then we're going to save ourselves a load of money and that's going to make us look really good.

Darren Evans: 21:44

That's, that's what you're talking about here, right, yeah, exactly and and so, for people that have been in the construction industry for a significant period of time will be, in most cases, really comfortable with that process and will even celebrate that process. Is it because we've beaten the architect? The architect doesn't, doesn't understand. Yeah, yeah, you're laughing is because that's yeah and and there's almost a bit of you know high-fiving and we've we've done really well here, because the thing that's driving this is is is money has cost and and cost, so so I think that that's.

Darren Evans: 22:20

I think that that's interesting that you, that you raise that as something that's come out as a result of of grenfell and, as I've thought about it, I don't know of any other way that that would have been highlighted to the public in the way that it has at the moment, which and this is going to sound really, really bad by me saying this but that is a good thing, it's a good thing that it has been highlighted to the public and it's a good thing that the industry then has had to answer questions and change approach as a result of what's happened and I say that on the backdrop is it's a good thing that, as a result of the second world war, that there have been significant advances within technology and the way that we do things, because we benefit as a society now as a result of that.

Darren Evans: 23:11

Now I'm not saying war is a good thing and it needs to be advocated, and I'm not saying that the people that have lost their lives and the atrocities and the ripple effects that that both of those disasters if I, if I use the right word there have happened, is it is a good thing and and we need more of them.

Darren Evans: 23:27

I guess what I'm saying is that literally from the ashes of that, there have been these things that have grown up that have definitely been needed. So I think you're right to highlight that.

Laura Baron: 23:39

Yeah, and I think it was it has, particularly in my career, which is, you know, not as long as it will be by the end of it.

Darren Evans: 23:47

So, for those people listening, you are very far away from 70 or 65 or whatever the age of retirement is now yeah, no, I'm 37, so to for context is helpful.

Laura Baron: 23:58

So I and when Grenfell happened I was younger, obviously, but the I think the point is it's been a defining turning point, particularly in my career, in the way that I view the sector, and it was part of the trigger that kind of pushed me. I found being an architect after that so stressful okay frankly and I've got colleagues and friends that I know still find being architect very stressful- because of the responsibility.

Laura Baron: 24:20

I think so. I think there's. There's always a pressure because architects hold so much liability and we have to and that and that was highlighted by that event even more so, and I think there's always. There's always pressure from whoever you're working with for time, delivery, like all of these things, but also you kind of want to architects when you go to university. It comes back to that kind of disconnect.

Laura Baron: 24:41

You're taught to be designers, be creative and be, you know, artistic and you want to allow time to do all of those things, but also in a very short, confined period of space, to a particular cost, and, yeah, it's stressful so, going back to the original question, which was how have you seen things change over that 20 year period?

Darren Evans: 25:00

I've just made up a number there yeah, not quite since you were, since you were 20 yeah is that right when you, when you started?

Laura Baron: 25:06

so I? Well, it's a long degree, isn't it?

Darren Evans: 25:08

so, yeah, I went to a university when I was 19, 20, yeah okay, so have you seen things change then, from when you were at university to where we are now, specifically around sustainability and the way that the industry views that?

Laura Baron: 25:25

so I think, around sustainability. I would say that the focus has shifted since about 2019 when my focus shifted, but I think it was an industry wide focus, because that's when you had, like Architects Declare setting up, similar time to Greta Thunberg doing the school strikes and things like that. So there was a noticeable shift in the conversation and in the debate around look how destructive the construction sector is. And that was the moment for me where I kind of was like oh wow, me being vegetarian or vegan doesn't make a difference to what. It has a difference to my own little sphere, but on the grand scheme of things, it has a tiny difference. But the sector that I'm working in is responsible for 40 percent of global carbon emissions. So I've got more. I've got more opportunity to have an impact in my profession than I do in my own personal life. So that was that.

Laura Baron: 26:13

I think that is a shift, certainly personal to me, but I think it's probably widely felt by the industry as a whole.

Laura Baron: 26:21

And so the the big change there was that architects were talking about it and wanting to kind of sign up to this declaration of architects declare and how do we run our businesses better, how do we run our projects better and at the same time, there's a lot of local authorities signing up to emergent.

Laura Baron: 26:36

They're declaring a climate emergency, so you've got local authorities committing to net zero by 2030 and you know which at the time didn't feel quite as close as it does now, and so I think there was a. There was a general shift of people making commitments, but not necessarily sure how they needed to get there, and then I don't think it's close as it does now, and so I think there was a general shift of people making commitments, but not necessarily sure how they needed to get there, and then I don't think it's necessarily shifted. I don't know if you, so the UKGBC have brought out an update report on their carbon progress to net zero and we're relatively far off where we should be, and so it's not shifted the sector and the way that we are working, but it shifted the conversation.

Darren Evans: 27:10

I think which I think is a good thing Before the sector shifts definitely the conversation yeah.

Laura Baron: 27:15

And so you know, every client that we're working with, the majority of them, are asking us how we approach sustainability in our projects and what mechanisms we've got in place to be able to develop, to kind of work with them on their net zero target. So I see that as a real positive shift. It's maybe not as quick as we need it to be going, but it's going positive shift.

Darren Evans: 27:36

It's maybe not as quick as we need it to be going, but it's going. So what is it that?

Laura Baron: 27:40

you think that needs to happen to change it from the conversation to actually the action. I think there's a mixture of carrot and stick. So I think that there is a desperate need for some legislation. I talk to so many project teams and clients who are like well, do we have to do this? If we don't have to do it, it then why are we doing it? Why are we spending our money on it? And until they have to do it, some clients just won't do it so sorry to jump in here is that?

Darren Evans: 28:01

is that question more rooted in them not understanding, or is it just rooted in them asking to be forced? So it's a bit so you've got a child and you say to your son right time for bed. Now why do I have to go to bed? So you've got an approach, and I'm sure you're a really good parent of, because if you don't you're going to be in a lot of trouble and I'm going to punish you, or if you do, then this really good thing is going to happen.

Darren Evans: 28:27

Or is there another way of him understanding? Oh yeah, actually I'm glad you've let me know. This is ideal world, right? I'm glad you've let me know mum I'm going to get to bed because I know that you know sleep and and please have my mobile phone because I know that that really negatively affects me. So I guess the point, the question I'm asking is is that question asked by the client, why do we have to? Or do we really need to? Is, is that for anything else than, or is there room for anything else? Then this is a flag to say we need legislation here to so we?

Laura Baron: 28:59

yeah, it's again. It's a good question and I think it's important to interrogate because I think that there is. It's probably a mixture, but I do think building regulation so many clients will just meet building regulations because they have to, because they know that if they don't, it's breaking the law, and so until but we don't have building regulations around embodied carbon, yep, and so until we have that, until we have something saying you cannot, with this building, you cannot emit more than x tons of carbon per square meter, kilograms of carbon per square meter. I think there would always be some clients that just don't do it. Okay, and and the industry can shift in that way, I think, and it can it.

Laura Baron: 29:34

The the scale at which we need to shift is possibly not something that a lot of people faced up to yet, but I think we can, we can, we can shift it, and other other european countries are looking to regulate embodied carbon, so there is precedent.

Laura Baron: 29:46

I think the other thing that is going to make a big difference is and I think I see it more already happening as a big difference is the market and the reputational benefits that organizations are seeing from making that shift to at least presenting themselves in a more positive, sustainable way, without greenwashing, because that is the kind of minefield that everybody is kind of battling with at the moment. Is kind of battling with at the moment, but I think when organizations, you know if they're looking for office space or something they we're now seeing that clients want to be able to say that they've got you know, well, platinum, very like, excellent, and you know, all of these different certificate certifications to to prove that they are doing what they say are their values, and so I think that that is a shift that's already happening and I think that that is a good shift.

Darren Evans: 30:36

I and you say that the shift that you've noticed has predominantly been since 2019.

Laura Baron: 30:41

I think even more recent than that, to be honest. I think since 2019, the the architectural sector kind of did have a bit of a shift and I think consultants kind of rallied together to try and move things along in the absence of any guidance from government and body like organizational bodies. But I think more recently has been the shift from clients and developers and because I think a lot of them are realizing how soon 2030 is and they've committed to targets yeah good.

Darren Evans: 31:08

Is there anything else that you think that needs to happen or that we could do to to change from just having a conversation to actually doing?

Laura Baron: 31:16

I think, being realistic about the scale of change that we need to do. And so, as a sector, we've coming back. I guess coming back on some embodied carbon, because I feel like operational carbon. Should we assume that everybody understands what?

Darren Evans: 31:26

embodied carbon is. So that was going to be my next thing is you just qualify what embodied carbon is, what operational?

Laura Baron: 31:32

yeah, okay, so the if you imagine the construction sector and the built environment emits 40 roughly of our global greenhouse gas emissions, and that's made up of operational energy consumption.

Laura Baron: 31:44

So the carbon that's emitted from the buildings directly through gas boilers or something, or the carbon that's emitted from the power plants that are generating the electricity that's used in the buildings, and then about 11 12 is the embodied carbon, which is the and the carbon emitted in the manufacture of the construction materials that go into a building, either as a new build or refurbishment or kind of general maintenance. And so it's that, that operational carbon, particularly in new buildings. That's kind of the conversations around that have been progressed quite far and there's legislation around that as well. There's, you know, there's various different targets and the, the kind of retrofit agenda, is trying to address the issue, the issues of operational carbon in existing buildings, which obviously there's a. We've got a large number of existing buildings, some of which perform terribly, so that that's that side of it. But then the embodied carbon, which you know. So eight to put into context, eight percent of global emissions is from cement manufacture, and if you think like do you know how much aviation causes in emissions, far less, far less like 2.5 percent.

Laura Baron: 32:44

So everybody's kind of going oh my god, I need to stop flying absolutely absolutely do, but cement is eight percent and so we need to stop using cement as well, and and so I think that it's kind of understanding the scale of the issue, our absolute addiction to new builds and shiny new things, and just I think, yeah, kind of having a better comprehension of what is needed and how fast.

Darren Evans: 33:10

So having things in context.

Laura Baron: 33:12

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Darren Evans: 33:13

Understanding. Actually, yes, there is a lot of noise around flying and not flying. I briefly covered that earlier on in the conversation about how you personally feel about flying to here, there and everywhere, but yet there isn't that same level of concern around cement is there.

Laura Baron: 33:30

Yeah.

Darren Evans: 33:30

And you know you're talking four times greater.

Laura Baron: 33:33

Yeah, it's because there's no Netflix documentary about it yet. I'm assuming that there will be soon.

Darren Evans: 33:37

Maybe you could make one, but you're right, I think that understanding that context and what that actually means can help to shape that conversation. I guess that's probably where I'm starting. I'm going to start with the conversation that then leads to that action.

Laura Baron: 33:51

Yeah, so there was a report that was released this year by a group of different organizations, including arab, I think were involved ellen macarthur foundation and the world green building council, and they brought out this report that said that by 2050 we needed we need to have reduced embodied carbon in our construction sector by 99 okay, so there is nothing in, there is nothing we're doing currently at the moment in the construction sector.

Laura Baron: 34:15

that looks like what we need it to look like in 2050. And by 2030, I think it said around 60% reduction, which we're nowhere near, and so it's kind of just understanding. What does that look like? 99% reduction in embodied carbon for our construction sector? It doesn't look like what we see now.

Darren Evans: 34:32

And then how can you take that into the context that we discussed before? By doing small things consistently that will lead to that 99 percent, because I think it's quite easy to feel overwhelmed at that 99 percent. Well, there's, there's no, there's no point. Why even bother? Yeah, there's no point trying I feel overwhelmed by that so, so what? What would you suggest?

Laura Baron: 34:51

and I appreciate that you said that you feel overwhelmed, but what would you know, as a starting point so for, because most of the listeners of this are going to be construction sector professionals, right.

Laura Baron: 35:00

So from from that point of view, I think it is essential to start asking questions of people that we're working for and people that are financing the buildings that are going up and say, well, do you need a new building here, can you use the building that's already there, or can you know where can we get these materials from that aren't being mined somewhere halfway around the world? And it's having having those challenging conversations that highlight the urgency, the the challenge ahead of us, but also just kind of saying, okay, well, what can we? Is there benefits to us reusing what we've already got, because it might be cheaper as well? And it's kind of thinking I think the circular economy is the only way that we're going to kind of get forward. In my view, there's no way we can keep extracting and just throwing stuff away because it's highly destructive, and so I think just being able to challenge us all to reuse things or be innovative and imaginative with what we've already got, I think is a good starting point, and it can be fun and exciting and you can make some really cool things with it.

Darren Evans: 35:59

I definitely think so, and you mentioned about the listeners to this podcast predominantly are going to be within the construction industry. That may be the case, but it may not be. I think those people that are listening and if they're shrewd enough to listen to the conversations. There's at least three business ideas that I've come up with as a result of these conversations. The reason I'm not pursuing them is because I've not got anywhere near access to resources to make it a viable product. But there is huge opportunity here for industry and for people on growth and development by solving these problems, absolutely. So, talking about solving problems, there's an organization that you're involved with and I think you've been involved with them fairly recently because they're a fairly new organization that are in a massive way to to solving the problems that we're talking about.

Laura Baron: 36:47

talk to us about, about Letty yeah, so Letty stands for low energy transformation initiative, leti so google, but they are and talking about that kind of shift around 2019, I think that's when they started and so it's a collection of like-minded consultants essentially a lot of really talented and clever engineers, architects and people that were really trying to drive this agenda but noticed that there was a gap in policy and guidance documents from other organisations, and so they have brought out a number of really brilliant reference guides and toolkits around net zero, how you achieve net zero and retrofit. They've got a really good residential retrofit guide. If anybody's thinking of retrofitting their own home, I would definitely recommend that as a starting point.

Laura Baron: 37:32

And it's just it's volunteers that have come together and said, oh, we really need to kind of come together and actually see how we can benchmark what we're doing and and now it's referenced in loads of local authority planning policy documents. So they've they've brought out targets for operational energy and embodied carbon and so, in the absence of embodied carbon legislation from kind of central government, local authorities are referencing the Letty embodied carbon targets in their own documents to try and drive that agenda at a local level. So I think the thing that they've managed to do really really successfully is communicate in a way that is super clear and accessible and the graphics they really pride themselves on, the graphics that they produce and how that is used as a tool to communicate very complicated ideas, but in a very simple way, and that's something that I try and advocate in the work that I do in practice as well.

Darren Evans: 38:24

What is it that you actually do for Letty?

Laura Baron: 38:26

So I'm on a working group at the moment and we're doing a the non-residential retrofit guide. So there is a residential retrofit guide, but then we're focusing on the non-residential retrofit guide. So that's the work that I'm doing at the moment and that's a kind of collaboration, really fascinating people and, like you're saying earlier, it's just, it's just nice to listen to other people that are experts in something. I don't. I don't, I never feel like an expert, but I think it's. I get to talk to lots, and so we are, we're specific, the group that I'm in specifically looking at higher education, which is a huge challenge in and of itself.

Darren Evans: 38:54

So that's yeah, that's what we're doing currently and what have you learned since being part of letty personally?

Laura Baron: 39:00

oh crikey I honestly my learning curve from the last year and a half is just kind of exponential.

Laura Baron: 39:05

It's just and I think that's part of the challenge of and why this topic can be quite overwhelming, because there's so much change very quickly and there's so much guidance coming out, and one of one of the.

Laura Baron: 39:16

So the the work that I do with Purcell is mainly heritage focused, and so one of the things that projects I worked on recently was with the City of London, who've got City of London. There's more than 600 listed buildings within the square mile, so it's very densely populated with a huge variety of different types of listed buildings, and so they came to us and wanted some help with producing a kind of toolkit for how you might retrofit a heritage building based on their kind of smorgasbord of different types of list of buildings, and so one of that was one of the things that I found was there's just so much different guidance and things available so we didn't really want to just reproduce something that already existed. So what we did was kind of create a document that signposts to other reference resources and things, because it just helps to have somewhere that allows you to kind of take a view of something and then kind of go off and specialize in something in a particular direction, because it can be quite overwhelming.

Darren Evans: 40:07

I'm just wondering now. The question that's in my mind is you will, in your role, also probably working with Letty, come across organizations similar to mine, which is specifically around sustainability consultancy in energy as well, and if you were to kind of have a magic wand that would install or instill something in those groups of of people, what would that be? What? What do you wish that sustainability consultants would do or stop doing?

Laura Baron: 40:38

I. I would like us to get to a place where we can move. I understand there's a place for certification, like brian and passive house leave, all of those kind of things, and I understand why they're necessary and why they're useful, but I'd like us to get to a position where that's not the reason sustainability consultants are brought on board, because I think that that and I include myself within the bracket as sustainability consultant, because I think the only way you can actually do something meaningful is if you're part of the process and it's not a checkbox exercise, and I think that that's what briam kind of forces you into is like, oh well, we've got a list of things, let's check them off. If we've done that, we get gold star.

Laura Baron: 41:12

Actually, you need somebody that's embedded in the design team, that's focusing on this conversation and challenging people to make a different decision, rather than going oh okay, well, you've lost a couple of credits there, but we'll make them up somewhere else, and so I think that that it has to be kind of a more integrated part of the design team and somebody that feels empowered to actually challenge decisions and ask for evidence to see how what they're saying is informing the design process, because that's the other thing around.

Laura Baron: 41:43

Things like whole life carbon assessments and stuff, which is great that you know the GLA ask you to include them, but if they're just done before a planning application, it's not informing the design, it's just it's just being done as a afterthought and so until you kind of and I think it's hard sell for clients but bringing as many people on as early as possible and making sure that in their scope they've got time to review iterations of design and not just go okay, well, we'll just do it right before planning good, good, I like that, I like that, and, and what you're suggesting there is moving away from not just a tick box, but going to a place where you understand the value of something.

Darren Evans: 42:21

Yes, yeah, so if I'm doing a tick box exercise, that's got no value apart from I just need to get it out the way because someone's going to tell me off. Yeah, but if I understand the value of something, I'm going to approach it with curiosity, with energy and and with determination to do it as best I can.

Laura Baron: 42:38

Yeah, yeah, definitely I like that Curiosity.

Darren Evans: 42:41

Like it. So I think now we're in a good position to go to the demolition zone. Sure, are you ready?

Laura Baron: 42:46

Yeah.

Darren Evans: 42:47

Let's do it. Welcome back. We are now in the demolition zone. You have created this wonderful structure. It looks very homely. I'm wondering too, so I can see here. It looks like there's a fairly high rise tower towards the front corner of this structure and it's kind of a rectangular shaped, but it looks like. It looks like a courtyard almost being supported around. But I'm giving up now describing what it is. I don't think it's that important. I think it's probably more what it represents.

Laura Baron: 43:20

That's, yeah is the important thing we were saying as I was building. It was quite a mindful process of just like not really thinking about what I was doing great, so this is the outcome great. Be assured that when I was a practicing architect, I was probably better at designing oh no, that's.

Darren Evans: 43:34

That's good. I like that. That, that's just. I'm sure you were in a flow state. In fact, you were in a flow state, to be honest. You were just doing your thing and it looks absolutely great.

Laura Baron: 43:43

You gave me a lot of materials to work from, which kind of threw me.

Darren Evans: 43:46

So what does this represent?

Laura Baron: 43:47

So the myth that I would like to bust is the idea that value in the built environment is measured in cost per square meter, and that is fundamental to how I believe we can move forward as an industry in just appreciating the value of things that we already have and not getting so bogged down in capital costs today, when we need to be having a much more long-term view and I think it's kind of something that I've been exposed to more working in heritage because, as you know, the the heritage sector, we kind of value buildings in multiple different ways and it's not because of their value to be able to rent them at a particular price or sell them at a particular price.

Laura Baron: 44:28

It's because we value them as an inherent part of our social identity and our history, and so I think there are definite lessons from the heritage sector in how we can value things slightly differently to cost, and I think we're starting to see it a bit more with terms like social value. You know the impact that a project can have on a community, on skills, on jobs and training and things like that. But I think that we could go deeper with it and I think it's important that we do to value the inherent energy that's been put into buildings that are already existing and their kind of material value, as well as the the value that they eat, regardless of whether or not they're listed the value that they offer us as society.

Darren Evans: 45:08

I like that. As you're speaking, I'm reminded of something that I'm probably going to get the phrase wrong, but, and I think the phrase goes along the lines of anybody can count the number of seeds in an apple, but no one can count the number of apples in a seed nice, so that value that's that's in a seed is only realized when it's nurtured. And it will go on and on, and on and on.

Laura Baron: 45:29

But if you just look at that seed just in an apple, that can be quite low in terms of its value, if you just look at it from that perspective absolutely, and again it comes back to that long-term thinking rather than just thinking about okay, well, I have and I I completely understand that the need to consider budgets today, but if we don't have that longer term view, then we're going to forget an awful lot of really important stuff, and so I think that that's one way that we can do. It is just measuring things in different ways and questioning things in different ways and really interrogating why it is that we're doing something and why something needs what, particularly when, when we come to terms like value engineering, which we all we all know is basically reducing the cost cost cutting

Laura Baron: 46:08

yes, and that is often at the expense of other things, because you know, it's not that. That's ultimately what we're trying to do is reduce the end cost of things, and and the cost just gets moved somewhere else. And and I I've kind of come to think of it a bit like you know when you go. You know when you, if you're buying clothes and you go to one of the cheaper high street fashion brands, which I won't necessarily name, your shame, but you know you'll, you can get more for your money, but those things aren't going to last as long, and it's that kind of throwaway culture that we have, whereas somewhere along that value chain somebody's paying. It's cheap for a reason. It's not cheap because it doesn't cost that much to make. It's cheap because somebody's not getting paid properly or because somebody's conditions are slightly worse than others, and I think you're just moving the cost of it to somewhere else, and I think that that's a real risk in the way that we currently operate.

Darren Evans: 47:01

I love that Something tells me that, although this is called the demolition zone, that there's another approach that you're going to take to this?

Laura Baron: 47:08

Yeah, definitely, and so I am a big advocate for dismantling over demolition. Well, firstly, reusing and I know that you do that with these blocks, so the next person on the podcast is going to reuse the same blocks. So, more as a symbolic gesture, rather than demolishing which I don't believe we should be doing we should be dismantling. We should be thinking carefully about why we're taking things down and redistribute those materials somewhere else and trying to keep them at their highest value. So, in that symbolic gesture, that's what I'm going to do, rather than just swipe it off the table, which is tempting because I like making a mess well, we will put you on fast forward as you redistribute.

Darren Evans: 47:46

Okay, so now this has been dismantled and it looks like it's it's in order, ready to be picked again and reused. So it's been great having you on the show here. I really do appreciate your time, and this time that we've spent together has just got me thinking is I wonder if there's anything that we haven't covered, that you wanted just to make mention of, or if you have any nuggets to share with people as a parting gesture.

Laura Baron: 48:07

Yeah, I think I guess it's just to reiterate, really, that I genuinely think that everybody's got a role to play and everybody does have some responsibility but also some ability to influence. And whether that's somebody that's kind of quite junior maybe doesn't feel like they have a voice, I think, certainly, from my position and my role, I would always advocate for people to just question and just ask the question, even if you think it's a stupid question. I constantly ask stupid questions and people constantly roll their eyes at me, but I don't care because I want to make sure that people are thinking about it, and so I would advocate for people being inquisitive and learning.

Darren Evans: 48:46

I love that Lifelong learning. There's no such thing really as a silly question. Exactly yeah, love that. So can you give me three things that someone needs to consider before coming into the sustainability industry?

Laura Baron: 49:00

I yes, passion. You need to really care and you need to have a lot of energy would be my second thing. It's a marathon, it's not a sprint, and be prepared to feel like you're bashing your head against the wall, but know that you're not on your own.

Darren Evans: 49:16

Love that. What three things do architects need to consider more when starting off a project?

Laura Baron: 49:22

This is a big question, but what's already there, context and how do you maximise what already exists on the site? Can we change people's expectations of what is expected on the site and can we be more adaptable about our brief and what is achievable based on what's there? And also, I would ask architects to really interrogate what good looks like.

Darren Evans: 49:46

What do students need to consider more when they are doing their part three?

Laura Baron: 49:51

I speak to a lot of students that are doing their part three, and sustainability is becoming more of a focus, and so I think you can't start your part three without having a better awareness of how you can can help push clients' different perspectives and how you can frame what the client wants around sustainability drivers, regardless. If that's not the first thing that they can, if that's not the first thing that's on their agenda, how can you bump it up the list? By making it about, okay, marketing. Or, if they've got different priorities, how can you shape them? And I think that that's something that part three could lean into a bit more.

Darren Evans: 50:40

What's the thing that you wish that corporations would do more of than what they're doing at the moment?

Laura Baron: 50:45

Being honest about where things aren't working. I am always really inspired by a big organisation that doesn't care or at least portrays the fact that they don't necessarily care about always doing like having got it right. I think sharing things, times where we've got it wrong or times, for example, if you've got a carbon footprint that's gone up one year because you're counting more, explain that and be honest about it and let other people learn from it. I think there's too much trying to just show the shiny stuff and showing where we're doing good things.

Darren Evans: 51:19

I think actually we need to be more honest last one what advice would you give to someone that feels disillusioned as a sustainability consultant and is thinking about coming out of the industry?

Laura Baron: 51:29

that's a good question. I would get to the like the crux of why you're disillusioned, what it is that you're unhappy about, and try and find a resolution to that. And it might be that you're not seeing enough impact quick enough, and I would definitely sympathize with that mentality. But I think that speaking to others in the industry, learning from others in the industry through through avenues like this and understanding what others are doing this kind of podcast is a perfect example of that.

Laura Baron: 51:58

Know that you're not on your own and that what you're doing does have impact. It might not be visible now, but know that it is impacting something somewhere and I think that's a really valuable thing. And if we all left this sector because we were disillusioned, then we'd be in real trouble.

Darren Evans: 52:21

That's great. That's a great thing to end on. Thank you. I'd like you to do me a favor, and I don't mean here just to ask you to subscribe and to follow, but what I'd really like you to do is to share this podcast with as many people as you think would benefit from it. I would love to maintain the quality of people that are joining me on this podcast, and so, in order for me to do that, I really need your help. It could be somebody that's looking to get into an industry, but they're not quite sure what industry they want to get into. Maybe it's a teenager that is just finishing their GCSEs or starting A-levels. Maybe it's somebody that's doing an English degree at university but is not quite sure what they want to do with that degree. So I invite you just to share this podcast with as many people that you know so that we can grow this community, so that we can maintain the quality, engaging conversations that we're having together. Thank you for your help.